Monday, September 10, 2018

Three Postgame Takes

1. Is it just me, or did this look eerily like the Raiders of last year? Carr tentative and errant. Cooper a non-factor. Defense unable to hold tight for 60 minutes. Penalties. Team looking slump-shouldered and defeated with three minutes to go and down two scores (yeah, it's unlikely, but you'll never do it without pep in your step).

2. What's with Carr just throwing the ball away at a crucial juncture when the play could have easily been extended by moving around. He needs to watch the one-legged Aaron Rodgers, or even rookie Sam Darnold. Weak sauce.

3. Let's hope we can chalk this up to the Rams being a formidable team. Regardless, this was an inauspicious debut for THE GRUDEN SHOW.


Blogger nyraider said...

Indeed. That was disappointing beyond even the anticipation of a loss.

Truth is, the offensive line held up surprisingly well. Kolton Miller had a couple holding penalties early but seemed to settle in. Penn was fairly solid on the right, and the big three held the pocket and opened a few lanes.

So what happened? The student schooled the teacher?

Geoff is so good at play action, half the time I didn't see which way the ball went. Maybe I need a bigger TV.

Cook had a monster night. Where were the WRs? Cooper is an enigma. The guy disappears in games.

And where was the pass rush? In Chicago?!@#$

But in the end, Derek Carr still doesn't look like the QB he was before his injury. That's a big problem for the Raiders. He's no longer competent under pressure.

4:45 AM  
Anonymous Raider00 said...

I didn't see the game...was curious if Carr is still floating soft passes all over field. he never seems to just let rip on any passes anymore. Mack in Chicago, is Carr the next one out the door. listen to Glanville..NFL is "not for long" if you don't win. and Carr makes a lot of $ so he has to produce.

I think Gruden will have to purge the Reggie roster and start over.

5:32 AM  
Anonymous Raider Nate 75 said...

Carr just didn't float passes, he under threw Jordy Nelson twice, and one was picked. He had Cooper long down the field and shorted it by 15 yards. He did not look right. It changed for him when Suh flat out hit his legs, and it was called a penalty, but Suh should have been ejected for that crap. After that hit, Carr under threw Cook in the end zone for a pick. He was jittery, focusing too much on the pass rush by the Rams, and quite frankly, looked lost. He threw the ball away several times when he had good protection.

The WRs were there, Carr wasn't getting them the ball. They were not on the same page. The second pick was a pass to Nelson that was 7 yards short. The 3rd pick, a pick 6, came late in the game on a bad read by Carr to Cook, and Marcus Peters jumped it and took it to the house. Other than that, it was dink-dunk-junk to RBs out of the backfield. Cook had 9 catches for 180 yards, the 2nd most was Richard with 9 catches for 55 yards.

MarShawn Lynch only showed up for one drive and that was the first drive of the game. After that, he had one other good run and shut down. Our defense played well overall, but our pass rush is non-existent. 1 sack, 3 QB pressures (all in the first half), and no turnovers. We have a solid DB and LB group, but the D-line has to learn how to disrupt the QB's rhythm. The only time Goff was pressured in the 2nd half came on a blitz by Derrick Johnson and Leon Hall. Goff still got the pass away to a wide open Brandon Cooks. Raiders had 11 penalties for 155 yards.
Tonight's game proved that Mack is more valuable than Carr. No pass rush gave the game to the Rams. If there was even a sniff of pressure on the Goff, the Raiders could have had a chance to win. Raiders looked good in the first half, but the offense couldn't stay on the field in the second. Gruden went with Martin and Richard in the second half at RB, Lynch disappeared after trucking the Rams in the first half. He had 10 carries for 38 yards in the first half, and ended the game with 11 carries for 44 yards. Pretty craptacular performance by our offense.

7:04 AM  
Anonymous Raider Nate 75 said...

Oh, and we have the Doncos next, IN DENVER! We cannot start 0-2.

7:06 AM  
Blogger OakTownBlues said...

I did not bother to watch the game. They did not bother to show up. RaiderTake, thanks for doing this. I'll peek at these prospective players from under my ChuckyVisor until they conduct themselves accordingly. Not a fan, just a casual observer at this point. You couldn't pay me to attend a game, hotel and all. Good luck. Invest your time wisely.

7:47 AM  
Blogger Raider Take said...

Oaktown, great to hear from you. Keep chiming in when you can.

Great recap, Nate.

I agree with you and NY, it was frustrating to see the lack of pressure on Goff.

7:51 AM  
Blogger OakTownBlues said...

I do hope that Oak leaves Oak with a winning record. I also hope that is not asking a lot, or too little. I think that is the only way to leave one town and enter another. Just a thought. On the other hand, even if they have a losing record, if they win out strong, well, you know what I mean. Close the coffin on the clownage.

9:22 AM  
Blogger nyraider said...

Nate, interesting point. Looking at Week 1, clearly Mack was more valuable than Carr. Both teams lost, but Cook or Manual could have done what Carr did. On the other hand, Mack had an historic game. He (still) just needs a better cast around him.

Hell, McCarron might find the field sooner than he thinks. Derek Carr was awful! Even in a hurry-up offense he struggled to get the ball off before the clock expired, and called at least two time-outs as a direct result.

If ever there was a throw away game, this is it. The heat turns up much higher Week 2 for a pivotal divisional game.

9:51 AM  
Anonymous Raider Nate 75 said...

I know it was only Week 1, and Week 1 is not an indicator for the rest of the season. The Raiders had some extremely bright spots in that game. When MarShawn is on, he can be unstoppable. We just need more consistent play from him at this point. He only played in 36% of the offensive snaps, Richard played in 50%. I don't remember the last time the Raiders had a 100 yard rusher in a game.

Bruce Irvin was getting some good pressure, but then got double teamed and RB chipped. Jordy Nelson got good separation on both Peters and Talib, but Carr couldn't get the ball to him. Amari did the same on a few plays, but was pretty much quiet all night. PJ Hall had some good pressure and run stuffs, but left before the end of the second quarter and did not return. The O-Line played tremendously well. The only one who really struggled was Osemele (3 holding penalties), but Aaron Donald will do that to you. Suh was held pretty quiet, with the exception of trying to take out Carr's legs. Hudson and Jackson had a few pancakes on Suh as well. Kolton Miller had a few penalties on the first 2 drives but settled down nicely. Penn seemed to hold his own, I think he gave up one pressure, maybe 2. Carr had time to go through his check downs, but didn't seem to give the WR's time to develop their routes, and ran through them too quickly. When he watches the film, he will realize he wasn't pressured as much as he thought he was; which tells me he was focused on the Rams D-line too much. I did the same thing at times as a QB in high school, and my coach would give me an earful. Once I got hit, I got over it. Carr seems to continue to crumble after getting hit. It is weird. Makes me think he is fragile.

Jalen Richard almost seems to do something amazing every time he touches the ball, I don't understand why he doesn't get more time on the field. Consistent blocking in the backfield, consistent hands coming out of the backfield, and a consistent runner always finding the hole and space to make yards.

Really, the D-line play and Carr's play (or lack thereof) was the downside for the game. Arden Key was ok, he had some good plays, and looked lost at times. The pitch to Gurley that lead to the 26 points, Key was on the edge and casually watched Gurley run by. He didn't even make an attempt to chase him down until he ran by, nor even attempted to square him up. Mo Hurst got pushed around all night up the middle, and Jelly Ellis, well, he was Jelly Ellis. All was Frostee on the Rucker/Calhoun front. Our DBs and LBs really kept the Rams from scoring more. I REALLY like Whitehead. He was absolutely all over the field last night. Conley looks amazing too. They targeted him early, and he shut them down quickly. They didn't target him as much in the second half. The Rams adjusted to where Leon Hall, Reggie Nelson, and DRC covered Cooks and Kupp and quite frankly, took advantage of that match up. Reggie Nelson bit too much on the play action too.

Most of these things can be corrected. The main thing is Gruden and Guenther need to figure something out with the D-Line and quick. As Al Davis said, "The QB must go down, and he must go down hard!" Fix that issue, and the Raiders will be lights out on defense. The Doncos up next, so it will not get easier for us. Make the world a better place, punch the Doncos in the face. JUST WIN, BABY!

11:29 AM  
Blogger nyraider said...

I thought I saw Hall in the 2nd half. One play he had an opportunity to rush Goff unabated but he just stopped and stood in his gap instead. That will be a glaring mistake during film review. Had he got in Goff's face, he could have prevented what I believe was a big play.

Aside from one nice 11-yard run, Doug Martin was useless, and not nearly as effective as Richard.

Gruden jokingly admitted he overused Warren III in preseason, and that led to his injury.

Martin, meanwhile, was given the "Lynch treatment" and barely touched a ball all pre-season. A guy who averaged 2.9 yards per carry for two straight years had nothing to prove to his head coach. That's more than a bit odd.

I strongly believe Warren should have played less in pre-season and he should have Martin's roster spot. Both Richard and Washington are more effective than Martin. We don't need three scat backs.

12:44 PM  
Blogger nyraider said...

According to media reported stats, Carr ran play-action 4.8% of his dropbacks, and was 2-2 on those plays. That's the lowest percentage of play-action by any QB in Week 1.

Meanwhile, Goff was at times masterful at play-action and at disguising end-arounds.

Another media source reported Cooper and Nelson averaged among the highest average yards of separation for WRs from defenders. Not sure how they measure that, but it speaks to the bad night Carr had. He had a solid pocket all night but looked panicked most of the time, dumping off or throwing the ball away.

Carr used to be so much better at his craft. For a guy that prepares as much as Carr, first game rust should not be an excuse. If so, he needs to play more in pre-season.

6:34 AM  
Blogger nyraider said...

After saying he could never waive Keon Hatcher after his 3-TD game, Gruden waived Keon Hatcher in favor of bringing back Bryant, who was less than stellar in his pre-season tryout with the Raiders.

In fact, the Raiders kept Hatcher on the 53-man roster and waived Bryant and Holton, only to bring back both Bryant and Holton and waive Hatcher.

What the hell is going on in Oakland? Is the roster being mismanaged, or is there a plan?

I still don't understand why Gruden waived Hester and signed Price... who's now injured. Hester spent the entire off-season (and last year) with the Raiders, and played well in pre-season. Price is a nobody, and the Raiders are short of talent on the D-line.

Back to Hatcher. Hatcher was really impressive in open space, and seems like a viable slot option to spark the offense.

Let's hope he doesn't get picked up off from waivers before the Raiders can pull him back to the practice squad.

It's possible this move will cost the Raiders two WRs. Hatcher might get claimed off waivers and Bryant could be suspended at any moment.

12:25 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


News flash, Hester is a nobody and did crap last year. Anyway, Raiders just signed Hankins. Who may be the best DT on our team all of sudden, which is a sad commentary on the talent level and why it is becoming apparent that a rebuild is going on.

This is a bitter pill for all of us to swallow but lets face it when Mack was traded the chances of the Raiders making the playoffs went from medium low to very very slim.

Hopefully Carr's play was an aberration but I too am beginning to become slightly nervous as it relates to his inability to get the ball down the field.

Bryant may be only available for a few games but given the fact he is a proven downfield player whose speed defenses respect he will be more helpful in opening up the field that a "slot" receiver as you termed Hatcher. I am not going to get broken up about letting go a guy whose resume is one good meaningless preseason game against 4th stringers.


4:50 PM  
Blogger nyraider said...

Sandy, if we are to rebuild, I will have to accept that. But even in the initial stages of a rebuild, you'd think the Raiders' roster would be among the youngest in the NFL; not a record-setting oldest roster in modern NFL history. We are protecting guys like Doug Martin instead of a talented rookie RB and rookie WR.

Meanwhile, moves seem haphazard and without a plan. Sure, injuries happen, but it goes much deeper, as the WR shuffle suggests.

Aside from those mentioned above, it's curious that the Raiders kept DE Carradine off the active roster last Sunday, but they chose to release DE Calhoun to offset one of the two recent DT additions.

Reaching further, Hankins is a former Giant, and was dumped by the Colts in a 2nd year of a 3-year deal. Giants claimed Edwards, Jr from the Raiders waiver list. Despite the irony, the Raiders could use Edwards right now. He knows the defense and plays the run well.

You may discount Hester as expendable, and that's okay, but he also knew the defense. Replacing him with Price is a lateral move, at best, and lessened by the fact that Price did not know the defense. Even worse, Price is injured.

Raiders seem caught in a storm of bad luck and bad decision-making.

Hope they get past the storm. Otherwise, it becomes a pattern....

5:42 PM  
Anonymous Raider00 said...

All of these roster problems are a result of six years of bad Reggie drafts. Look at rounds 2 through 5, tell me where the value is. In fact, many of the players drafted are not even on the team any longer.

Oh, I forgot, Carr was a #2 pick. But even he is very shaky these days. I also blame Mark Davis, who like to go around telling everyone, "I know what I don't know". Does he know yet how bad of a GM Reggie has been?

Dennis Allen failed. JDR failed. And now Gruden takes over Reggie's roster of crap and heart conditions. The one common link through all this mess is Reggie.

"I know what I don't know". What ever happened to "Just win baby"

6:40 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


All your points have merit. However we are really picking at the bottom of the roster. So though I hear you on what seems to be some rather undisciplined moves at the end of the day it is probably not material to the end game.

Hankins was cut because of $$$ not performance.

Bringing in vets to stabilize the culture and steady the ship till talent can be put in place is a classic Gruden move.

00 you make a good point, the lack of talent.

The question I have been asking myself and put to all of you is the following:

Am I really denying how bad the roster is as it relates to my Mack depression. If we accept 00 analysis a complete rebuild is necessary and having kept Mack or for that matter most everyone else for two years of futility probably does not make sense especially for 24mm a season.

When Gruden was hired, with 12-4 16 months ago and two years to go in Oakland I was hoping for a feel good playoff run. Its hard to let that go.

I think we are looking at 8-8 this year. Let's face it the Rams have an amazing team especially on defense. I am telling myself CArr will have an easier time of it going forward


7:36 PM  
Blogger nyraider said...

Sandy, we aren't just talking about the bottom of the roster. It's up and down the roster. For example, we traded a 3rd round pick for Bryant. What other NFL team would dump a third round pick before opening day of the year he was drafted? Only the Raiders. So what if the Raiders avoid his salary guarantee by doing so, it's a risky move for a player that's supposed to have 3rd round draft pick value. If the juice is worth the squeeze, you don't take the risk.

IMO, the Raiders do not (did not) need to rebuild. As you said, Raiders were just 12-4 before Carr went through a couple injuries. This year is another huge step backwards IMO. Gruden had plenty to work with, including the best defender in football.

And if a rebuild was necessary, Mack is the guy you should most want to build your defense around. Raiders can go through 20 drafts and never replace Mack.

I agree the Rams are a better team. But they were also better coached on Monday. Raiders were not prepared on offense. It was too vanilla. It was startling to see how good Goff is at play-action and disguising plays and contrast that with Gruden's game plan and Carr's execution (or lack thereof). Media reported Carr ran play-action 2x the whole game... the Raiders offense checked out entirely in the 2nd half.

Seems like Gruden is content to dismantle the entire roster and take the year to shake off the rust from his 10-year coaching absence. I disagree with the approach but have no choice but to go along for the ride.

4:42 AM  
Anonymous Raider00 said...

NYR, I have to disagree. I believe Raiders do need a rebuild.

the lone playoff year, Carr & Mack carried team on their backs. But when Carr went down, thin Raiders roster was badly exposed. No back up Qb. No running game to fall back on. Bad special teams, and a one man defense with Mack and 10 statues. Raiders went down like meek little, lambs.

You have to ask yourself. Raiders traded Mack for package of draft picks. Given his history, do you really trust Reggie to make those picks? I don't.

Do we want Gruden doing it alone. I don't.

Mark "I know what I don't know" Davis, should bring in a qualified GM to work with Gruden ASAP, or this thing is going from bad to worse.

6:08 AM  
Blogger nyraider said...

00 - I don't think we disagree, completely.

Rebuild takes many forms. Tough to suggest a re-tool for a team that hasn't won in 14 years, save one season which, as you said, Carr and Mack carried the team.

Exactly why Mack was a key player to build this team around. Mack is the guy in the locker room and in the huddle who demands 110% effort from his teammates. That's where it starts!

As you said, McKenzie and Gruden can't be trusted to make good on what is really only one first-round pick from the trade. The other two picks were swaps. And a $100mm coach isn't about to give up a modicum of control over the roster. McKenzie's probably fetching Gruden coffee as I type. Replacing Reggie isn't gonna change that.

2018 is nothing like McKenzie's first year when salary cap was the issue. Gruden has foregone young talent in favor of long-tooth vets. Sure you need a vet presence, but if this is a gut rebuild, I'd rather watch young players develop now than wait a couple years while Gruden keeps shuffling the roster, almost randomly.

That will ring even more true if the current roster can't produce wins.

Honestly, an 8-8 season might be a reach this year, and it's not much of a stepping stone when so much of the roster will turn over again next year.

To me, 2018 is starting to feel like a trash year and perhaps 2019 will be the start of a new foundation. That sucks because I thought the Raiders were better than that.

7:26 AM  
Anonymous Raider Nate 75 said...

I agree that the 12-4 year, Carr and Mack carried the team on their backs. Good leaders help those around them be better. When Carr went down, the offense went down. Bringing in vets is a Gruden move, and it does stabilize the roster. The problem is we let one of the more stable pieces of the puzzle go, Mack! I'm done with this though. I don't want to beat the dead horse that I can't change anything about. Mack cannot be an escape to how poorly our team performs, and I think that was the message that Gruden was trying to send when he traded him.

With that said, I have a difficult time with coaches coming in and "rebuilding" things. It tells me that the coach who does this does not know how to utilize the talent they have. It also tells me that the coach is more about his ego, than the team. Both of these things speak volumes about Gruden. He is all ego. We know from decades of experience that ego destroys teams, more than it helps. I was hoping that Gruden could have used the roster that was in place, and tweak it in a few places (like DBs, DTs, LBs; which he did) and work some magic. Going 12-4 a few years ago shows us that we didn't need much tweaking to be a competitor. It took more than Carr and Mack that year. Cooper was lights out, and has since disappeared. Our D-line was lights out with Irvin opposite of Mack, but our DBs killed us. But no, he feels like he has to come in and destroy everything and start over. Why? Because it is not to his liking. No other reason. He is a scheme guy, and needs players to fit his scheme. The great coaches utilizes the strengths of the roster they have, which is what makes Bellichek so successful year in and year out. That is what I've been concerned about every since the Raiders announced his hiring (go back and look).

As far as Bryant is concerned, it sounded like he was struggling mentally with some things and the Raiders gave him space to get his head right. They probably saw some similarities between he and Aldon Smith, but were in a position to actually help him. None of us really know what happened there, but reading into what Gruden said about him being in a good place and in a great state of mind tells me that something was happening with him on a personal level.

I'm excited about Hankins. I like this better than Mo Hurst, who gets pushed around too easily. Hankins can help Hurst develop in strength and as a player. I loved Hester's work ethic, but I'm not sure he was grasping what was being asked. When he played in regular season games, he disappeared. You didn't really hear much about him in Training Camp, nothing really stuck out with him. Only in preseason games did he stand out, but that was against subpar competition. He was on the practice squad the last few years with us, and I don't think he was developing which is why you put a player on the PS to begin with. I think that was a good move on our end. A vet like Hankins will be able to pick up Guenther's scheme and run with it.

Hall was seen in a walking boot yesterday, but is listed as having an ankle sprain. That is overboard for an ankle sprain, I wonder if he has a slight fracture (much like Carr's "dislocated pinky"). Same with Justin Ellis' foot injury. He wasn't at the facilities yesterday either, so not much is known. It feels like it is going to be a bumpy year. Buckle up.

7:54 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

One of my concerns is if the team is going into a total rebuild or a two year reset. If it is a total rebuild does it really make sense to keep two guards and a center making 10mm each?

That would be a shame to waste such a great offensive line.

I worry about Carr and worry 12-4 was fools gold. I wish they could be competitive while they regroup and not rebuild.


8:42 AM  
Blogger nyraider said...

The WR shuffle is a mystery unto itself. Raiders signed Brandon LaFall, a 9-year vet. Where's he in all this? Why was up-and-coming 3-TD Keon Hatching more expendable than LaFall, whom I'd never heard of before the Raiders signed him?

The roster shuffling thing is weird. Why sacrifice young talent like Hatcher? Hatching was catching contested balls, passes thrown behind him, under him and over him. The kid looked like a superstar in the making. Love to see him play slot for a real game and see if he can create some mismatches.

For me personally, I'm tired of watching Cooper disappear for weeks at a time. Any #1 or #2 WR worth his salt will find ways to get open. Just talking about all his talent is getting old. Cooper was never Carr's go to WR. Crabtree was.

8:50 AM  
Anonymous Raider Nate 75 said...

Cooper was open several times in the game, and Carr kept going to Cook, or under threw Cooper. So it wasn't like he disappeared, Carr didn't get him going. Gruden criticized Carr for doing just that today. He and Jordy were open almost all evening against Talib and Peters, but Carr kept going to the check down of Richard and Cook. The Rams adjusted, and picked Carr off when McVay saw Carr wasn't going to go to his big WRs.

That plays back into my earlier thoughts that Carr wasn't letting the play develop like it should, he was jittery and skittish in the pocket after getting hit. Don't give up on Cooper, Gruden needs to get in Carr's face about his mistakes and ride him. I will place money this weekend will be different.

10:47 AM  
Anonymous Raider Nate 75 said...

The initial list of potential Hall of Fame candidates was released, and Tom Flores has made the list. Here is hoping he gets his well deserved nomination.

10:51 AM  
Blogger nyraider said...

Nate, hope you're right about Cooper. What we do know about Coop is that he has a propensity for drops.

I read Gruden's comments a little while ago. Despite Cook's record-setting performance, Carr played arguably his worst game as a pro.

Remember, Carr played out of the shotgun his entire college career, where he enjoyed lots of success and threw 50 TDs in his last season. Throughout Carr's pro career, he's played better in shotgun, which only Bill Musgrave seemed to understand. I imagine he sees the field and reads defenses better.

Gruden has him playing under center far too much. This could be part of the problem.

11:24 AM  
Anonymous Raider Nate 75 said...

I am watching Texas Tech vs Houston, and let me tell ya; #10 of Houston, Ed Oliver, is a Defensive Tackle that the Raiders need to be looking at in the draft this next year. He and PJ Hall would be a HUGE disruption for years to come. If you haven't seen him, try and find videos online. He has declared for the draft already.

2:05 PM  
Blogger nyraider said...

The Mack trade is still bothering me. Raiders had no pass rush last week. The rookies are too inexperienced to be effective. Of course it comes with time, but Mack would have been extremely valuable in this regard.

I'm still seeing lots of debate on the Internet about Mack's salary being the reason for his trade. Aside from Gruden's statement debunking that theory, saying the reason is that he didn't think Mack wanted to be a Raider (which is flat out wrong!), I don't understand why Raiders fans should be so concerned about the future salary cap which is still unknown. It's a talking point, at best, trying to rationalize a stupid mistake.

Mack counted for about $13.6mm on this year's cap. Even with his mega deal, that's all the Bears cap hit was this year. Yeah! That's it!

But for argument sake, let's say the Raiders needed the cap space this year. Media reported they had over $8mm in cap space before the trade. You don't need a calculator to known 13.6 plus 8 equals 21.6. The Raiders could have easily signed Mack for less than the Bears did, and right around that number (and even negotiated that down for zero state income tax in Nevada - a savings of $2.0mm to $3.00mm per year at CA tax rates).

Here it comes... but what about next year's cap, and the year after? Right?

Let me ask this, what has Cooper done as a Raider? Why should the Raiders throw big money at Cooper? Marshawn Lynch's multi-million dollar deal is done next year, and so are several overpriced one-year vets who are ready to retire. And whatever the Raiders are paying Doug Martin, it's too much.

And if you're of the opinion that Hurst, Hall and Key are the nucleus of the Raiders D for years to come, they are all on rookie deals that would survive the next 4 years without change.

Two other factors: 1) Carr's cap hit goes down every year; and 2) the salary cap goes up! So, the whole cap thing is a moving target, and not well thought out by some pundits and fans who prefer to simply give Gruden the benefit of the doubt here.

Plan B was even more obvious: The Raiders didn't have to do a thing! Mack was under contract, and they had two years to tag him. That's three years of Mack's service on the cheap. Like it or not, lots of teams do it. It's part of the business, contrived by the owners and the players in the CBA.

In the end, losing Mack has made the Raiders worse as a team. The evidence in last week's games couldn't have been any clearer. The Bears are thinking that was money well-spent; and Raiders are still trying to rationalize the trade.

Honestly, if Carr doesn't figure it out soon, many fans are gonna think the Raiders traded the wrong mega-deal player.

4:58 PM  
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