Monday, March 26, 2007

Thoughts on Carr and Stars

Like the Texans, last year I thought David Carr might still have some gas left in his tank. Like the Texans, this year I’ve got the feeling that he’s running on empty. He just might be the second coming of Joey Harrington. If he comes to Oakland, I’ll get behind him 100 percent, but at this point I’m skeptical (perhaps partly because I watched him throw for negative yards in Oakland last year). On the other hand, I believe we need a veteran presence at quarterback. Think I’m crazy? Okay, what’s your proposal at this point, a depth chart composed of Booty, Walter and a Rookie? But if we’re going to grab veteran, the pickings are getting slim. In addition to Carr, you have Trent Green and Daunte Culpepper as possibilities. I’m not under the illusion that the Culpepper of today is the Culpepper of yesterday, but he has a proven connection (at least on the field) with Moss, and the fact that he’s not the Culpepper of yore means that his price might be right. I think he has more upside than Carr at this point. He also has more star power.

This brings up another touchy subject, and that’s this concept of likeable star power, or the lack thereof on the Oakland Raiders offense right now, and what it ultimately means. Our biggest star, Randy Moss, is almost universally reviled by the Raider Nation. I’ve never seen anything like it. Terrell Owens has more fans among his team’s supporters than Randy Moss does. It’s sort of like Colts fans hating Peyton Manning or Seahawks fans hating Shaun Alexander. Now consider the remainder of our offense. Whose jersey do you want to buy for your kid at this point in time? At the sport’s most glamorous position, we’ve had Kerry Collins and Aaron Brooks as our presumed starters for the past three years. Porter is not very likeable. LaMont Jordan generally says the right things and has shown flashes of star power, but staring at fumbles, dropping passes and getting injured have undermined his allure (as has running for an average of less than four yards per carry). Walter may still have promise, or he also might be the next Scott Dreisbach, a blip on the radar (for example: good luck finding a Walter jersey at the Raider Image). Don’t even mention our offensive line. As much as it pains me to say it, we simply have no identity on offense. How did we get to this point? Can you name one player on offense who was a sure bet not to get released, traded or demoted during this offseason? I can’t.

If you think I’m being shallow, fine. But on offense, we need some players we can get excited about and truly get behind. Guys like Fred Biletnikoff and The Snake, and Bo Jackson and Marcus Allen, and, more recently Tim Brown, Steve Wisniewski and Rich Gannon, and even Jerry Rice.

I realize that my argument here is more emotional than analytical. But I just feel like we're all hungry (maybe I should just speak for myself) for a more compelling cast, preferably one with more star power or potential. Isn’t that part of the fun of being a fan, that sense of excitement about likeable characters and/or natural superstars who galvanize and motivate not just the fans, but the team as well? We deserve that, and the legacy of the Oakland Raiders does as well. I think that JaMarcus Russell might fit the bill, and that's why he gets my emotional vote for our first pick in the upcoming draft. If David Carr or Daunte Culpepper are here to build a bridge to the future, even better in my opinion.

P.S. The deadline for Raiders season ticket holders to make partial payments on their renewals was last Friday. To be honest, it caught me by surprise. They sent a reminder on Wednesday, which I felt was a bit too late. I called the ticket office to ask for a little more time to pull things together, and they said it was no problem. I spoke with a guy—alas, I forget his name—who said I wasn’t alone, and that they are happy to be flexible on this front. So if you missed the deadline, don’t despair, just call 800-RAIDERS to hash it out. Once again, I have to commend the Raiders ticket office for their highly personalized service. The folks there aren’t mere phone jockeys for hire. They are Raiders fans who respect other Raiders fans, and who work closely with you to make sure you get the attention you deserve. If you are considering season tickets, I urge you to call them and shoot the breeze, as I think you will impressed and motivated by the experience.

172 Comments:

Anonymous heartland raider fan said...

WOW ...what a emotional dilemma for you... it's almost as traumatizing as picking out the right shoes and purse or buying a new shade of nail polish.
So many to choose yet nothing grabs me!

So let me get this straight...the Raiders draft Russell so the fans can say....Look who we have!

Let me help you. When the Raiders start winning...this problem will solve itself, and the stars will emerge on their own. I'd rather see the fans picking their own favorite player and see 10 or 15 popular Raider jerseys being worn and equally as popular.

So your logical conclusion is....if the Raider pass defense (rated 3rd in the NFL) holds a QB to -5 yards
the defense didn't have a great game, but rather the other teams QB sucked.
I totally disagree with your assessment of Carr. Carr has had the luxury of playing his whole career on a team (an expansion team) almost as bad as the Raiders were last year. Steve Young had banner years with Tampa Bay (expansion team) didn't he? He sucked too, when he went to a San Francisco.

6:12 AM  
Blogger nyraider said...

RT-
I just don’t understand why some believe a WR can make more of an impact on the Raiders than a QB. Last I checked, we have plenty of WR’s and we’re a little short on QB’s.

Also, what is it about the Raiders (at least short-term) that make some believe that Carr and/or Walter can do what they’ve been unable to do so far in their pro careers? I am as hopeful as anyone, but are we suddenly going to provide pass-blocking and a running game for Carr that the Texans could not? Is Walter going to suddenly scramble away from pressure and get rid of the ball? Or, is Calvin Johnson going to throw the ball to himself?

Some contradict themselves with their blue-collar theories on offense, then profess flash at WR will get the job done. Or, they say we need someone who can provide immediate impact.

If we bring in Johnson and nobody can get him the ball, how’s that better than where we are now with Moss, Curry and Porter? After another sub-par season, we’ll need to draft or sign another QB next year and start all over again. De ja vu?

Sure Russell is a risk. But if we’re ever going to take a risk at QB, now is the time to do it. Bring in Carr, or Culpepper, or even Bledsoe as a stopgap measure. My guess is Russell will be taking the snaps by mid-season where ever he plays, ala Cutler, Young and Leinart. Based on what we experienced last year, mid-season should be soon enough for any of us.

6:16 AM  
Blogger Raider Take said...

Heartland, I respect your opinion. As I said, can you name one player on offense who you would have been shocked--shocked!--if they got cut, traded or demoted during this offseason? Maybe Ronald Curry, that's it for me. Around whom do we build this winning offense that you speak of? David Carr or bust? So because the Raiders defense is good, it's okay to throw for -5 yards?

I think it's time we started talking about this. Our offense needs an identity, it needs players to build around. If you think we already have those players, then pleae name them. If you don't think having players to build around is important, then we have a major difference of opinion.

This isn't about jerseys. That's simply a way of demonstrating the fact that we don't have an identity on offense. I think Russell would be a firm step in establishing an identity, and I think we need to take other steps as well, and methodically remake this offense. I think that fresh ideas are coarsing through Alameda, and I think we need some fresh talent to go with it, and I'd leave no offensive stone unturned at this point.

7:22 AM  
Anonymous heartland raider fan said...

In my opinion the offense already has an identity.....Lane Kiffin.

Let's look at the New England Patriots.
The Patriots "identity" is Belichick. Tom Brady is a star on Belichick's team.
What was the "identity" of the 2002 Raiders that went to the Superbowl? It was probably still considered Gruden's team more than Callahan's or Gannon's even though Gruden was gone.
The defense last year was 3rd in the league without an "identity".
Though I see it as Rob Ryan's defense. Asomugha and Burgess have emerged as key players for Ryan but are hardly NFL marquee stars.

As with any championship team... the offensive line is the key to it's success. (The game is won and lost in the trenches...ever heard that one?)
As exhibited by Kiffin, among the first hires he made were for offensive line coaches.
So if it's that important for you to build a team around some players, I suggest you start with Gallery, Sims, Slaughter, and Newberry


So because the Raiders defense is good, it's okay to throw for -5 yards?

No it's not ok to throw for negative yardage...but it's worse to not give credit where it's due.
Especially when doing so to make a point in favor of your own personal opinions.

Gallery or Janikowski being cut or traded would have shocked me.

(I'm an ass...I can't help it. I gotta be me.)

8:20 AM  
Blogger StickUm25 said...

I can agree to the lack of identity point. Unfortunately that has been the case since Gannon went down. The lack of commitment to the running game, the lack of inspiration from the head coach, the lack of leadership and talent at the QB position have been an issue for the last three years.

I thought someone would deal a mid-round pick for Carr, so I was surprised when he was straight out cut. It must mean that the reports of his throwing motion and more importantly, lack of commitment, are true. While I was hesitant to use the word bust I'm more suspicious of his ability at this point.

In my mind the question becomes - do we incorporate a veteran at all? Aside from the potential dollar save, might it be prudent to go with Russell/Quinn and Walter through mini-camps, and just pick up a vet later? I'm thinking back to when Dallas let Aikman and Walsh fight it out. While we would not have the vet to fall back on, someone to mentor the young guys, we'd also not have to deal with any bad habits, someone who might not want to play looking over their shoulder, someone who might not buy into the program. Because Kiffin is so young it might actually make more sense to take advantage of that synergy, take the lumps early, and get up to speed that much more quickly. If Kiffin can design an offense that fits the skills of the QB, and slowly adds components as the season progresses, this may be our best bet to get things resolved for the long term, and establish that identity.

8:37 AM  
Blogger Raider Take said...

Heartland, I appreciate your prickly sense of humor, it keeps this place appropriately rowdy.

Good point about Kiffin. I've got a similarly good feeling about him, but he needs players. Belichick and the Patriots without Tom Brady is Belichick and the Patriots with Drew Bledsoe, which means bye-bye dynasty.

8:46 AM  
Anonymous heartland raider fan said...

Just to substantiate the point I made about denying the Raider defense the credit they deserved for the fantastic game they played against Houston last season.
David Carr averaged slightly over 182 yards per game passing in the other 15 games he played last season. That 15 game average includes the games he was benched early for Rosenfeld.

8:51 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Heartland
Cutting Gallery would've shocked you? Have you watched him play? Maybe they don't televise Raider games out in the heartland so let me say, he sucks! One move and he's done, he's got no answer for speed.

Football is a business, so yes, "look who we have" makes business sense. Especially if the kid plays up to his potential.

As for Carr, maybe he didn't have a chance with Houston. Fine, I don't want him to have a chance here. I will back him if, IF, we get him. But in my not so humble opinion it's Russell or bust.

I agree with Stickum let Russell and Walter fight it out and then pick up a vet later on. There will certainly be veteran QB's available later on in training camp.

Roy

8:52 AM  
Anonymous heartland raider fan said...

Hmmmm...PRICKly????

See what the Chief and Bronco fans all around have to deal with?

8:54 AM  
Anonymous Heartland Raider fan said...

Hey Roy.......yeah we even have satellite TV out here in the "Sticks" so I get to see the Raiders play. By golly, we even have satellite radio too.
I won't even defend the comment you made on Gallery. I'll let Jerry Porter defend his play season instead.
From Sirius radio interview with Porter......"We had five guys doing five different things instead of five guys doing one thing in unison. Keep in mind I haven't blocked a D-tackle or a 3-technique ever, so I can't say exactly what the probem was, but that's what I feel the problem was . . . Robert Gallery didn't come to the NFL and forget how to block, and neither did Jake Grove. But if you tell Robert to do one thing, and Jake to do something different . . . there are going to be some holes."

9:13 AM  
Blogger nyraider said...

heartland-
what do you have against Russell? And will you support him if we draft him?

Stickem25-
you make a good point... maybe we shouldn't sign a vet. It takes the right (unselfish) person to be a mentor. Our coaching staff can get it done with young QB’s. We have to start somewhere!

9:20 AM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...

First off, Al Davis DOES NOT make every draft pick. When he says that by and large the coach gets what he says he needs, I believe him. I can think of no draft in the last ten years that followed one of the two "known" Al Davis designs.

It is true that we've drafted an inordinate number of DBs in the first round the last several years. (But maybe this is why we led the league in pass defense.) And defensive backs ARE among the selected group of players who Davis reportedly likes to grab in the 1st round. But QBs are not. If we are to believe the "Davis formula," the Raiders will draft Peterson.

This will be Kiffin's pick, and Al Davis will protect and obscure that pick for his first year coach. If we're going to figure out who that pick will be, we have to evaluate Kiffin's tendencies. I believe that Kiffin is more QB oriented than WR oriented. Davis generally would not drat a WR in the 1st round either, unless he had multiple 1st round picks.

I don't really believe that adding a rookie WR to this team ("NFL ready" or not) is going to get us anywhere. A not quite ready for prime time QB, however, is another issue. Especially if that QB works hard to learn, because it will push the other QBs on the team to do better (if for no other reason than to audition for other teams).

Think about it. Do you expect that drafting Johnson will cause Moss and/or Porter to play better. I'd suspect, rather, that putting the ball in Johnson's hands will send Moss and/or Porter into another one of their "moods." And neither Moss nor Porter has any reputation of bringing along "the new talent."

It's not that I want the least favorite players of the Nation to control the draft, but sometimes reality is what it is. If we draft Johnson, we need a whole new WR corps.

Kiffin has already shown that the Raiders will focus on "reloading" rather than "rebuilding." If we were going ot rebuild, we'd trade down for multiple picks and focus on OL, TE, DL, and FB. With the right infrastructure in place, we'd then begin to tinker away at the money positions. Instead, it appears, that we are adding to what we have, and that suggests to me that we'll either find a veteran franchise QB (none available) or draft the potential franchise QB of the future.

9:21 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hearland,
LMAO! Glad to hear you've got DirectTv, I couldn't live without it.

Perhaps, I could live with Porter's explanation if Gallery had one bad year. He hasn't. He has had nothing but bad years. Since he came into the league he has sucked, every season it is the same, fast DE's put one move and they're past him. Did he forget how to block? I would guess no, but then Tony Mandarich seemed to forget how to block, so you never know. That being said, I hope Cable can bring him back. I really do. IF Cable can do this then we will be much better than anyone is expecting.

Roy

9:24 AM  
Anonymous Raider Nate 75 said...

I don't think our O-line sucks, when you go through 3 coaches in 4 years, all with different philosophies; that is hard on everyone; especially the O-line.
This is Gallery's 3rd coach, McNasty's 2nd coach, Sims 4th coach, and Groves' 3rd coach. The only exception out of this for me is Barry "what's-the-snap-count-again?" Sims. I wish we wouldn't have re-signed him. This O-line hasn't had a true vet-leader since Barrett Robbins, so hopefully Newberry will fill that void.
Regardless, the O-line will be a thousand times better than this last season.
As far as QB, Carr and Walter are in the same boat. Have they really had a chance to prove themselves at QB in the NFL on their respective teams? No! Carr has shown signs of being an outstanding QB. He's a competitor, and has leadership qualities that are missing on this offense right now; but so does Walter. Russell does too, but as Hearty has pointed out, hasn't played in the NFL yet; but the qualities are there in each of these guys. I don't know if Carr is a playoff QB, but I can say the same about Walter, and definitely about JRuss. It's not a slam against Walter, who deserves a shot at starter, but outside of him, who's there? Nobody.
If it came down to it, I'd rather have Carr as our vet QB than Culpepper. I think we need Walter, Carr, and JRuss. That is some pretty stiff competition for the starting job. Then we have expendibility for trade to better other areas.
As far as WR, I don't think CJ is a necessary pick. I'd rather pick Joe Thomas or Levi Brown here than CJ; even if we cut Moss. Porter at #1, Curry at #2, let the rest battle out, but somewhere in there put in Wil Buchanon at #4 or 5.
With the second pick of the draft, I go after a DT first, and OLB as 2nd choice and third round on O-line and TE.

10:41 AM  
Anonymous memdf said...

Stickum25-
I think your take is right on the money. I am also with Heartland on Carr. This guy is a proven bust. No different than Brooks who made the same mistakes in Oakland as he did in NO. I anticipate the same from Carr.

Kiffin's first year will be one of evaluation. Hopefully a tone can be set early on offense. Begining a rebuilding, yes, rebuilding. Plugging in a player here and there as an identitiy is established, ala Gruden.

Go with Russell or Quinn early on. Let either take his lumps like Smith did at SF his first year. Gradually getting better and building toward something. Look at the 49ers now. (I don't have the same blind hate for them because I live in the midwest.)
I have seen their improvement each year. They have a plan it seems.

I think there needs to be a new starting point. Not this chasing the dragon by getting in a "veteran" and hoping it's the next Plunkett or Gannon.

I also think that, in my true conspiracy theory mentality, the reports from the major media outfits that Carr would be a good fit, etc., is baiting the trap.

True there is no guarantee of Russell or Quinn but it is a fresh start.

12:05 PM  
Blogger Corey said...

"Can you name one player on offense who was a sure bet not to get released, traded or demoted during this offseason? I can’t".

I can...... Ronald "I can perform every acrobatic catch that Calvin Johnson can" Curry.

And you know this mannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!!!!!!!!!

I still know that he is far better than Porter or Moss (all-around; minus injuries). It's a shame that he is not being utilized appropriately.

You gotcha letuce, tomatoes, guacamole, meat, and cheese; how in the hell do we keep coming up with a T.V. dinner. Were's the freakin' tacos? We've got all of the blasted ingrediants.... Mannnnnnnnn!!!!!

Fo' sheezy from Octopeazy. To all.. Much peazy!! Dekalb County (East Atlanta), Georgia

1:07 PM  
Blogger Corey said...

One more thing..... Mannnnnnnnnn!!!

I, with every fiber of my D.N.A., have always utterly despised Tom "Freakin" Brady; not just because of the infamous "Snow Heist", but because everytime I witnessed him operate in the two-minute offense, I was reluctantly reminded of "Come-back Elway". Damn!!! I hated those. You just know that if Brady gets one last opportunity, more than not, he's going to capitalize.

In the form of the Charlie Weis mold, "Q" is liken to Brady. I'd rather cheer for him than oppose him. JR is straight in many facets, but I'd rather that our General invoke fear into the hearts of thine enemy, It's psychological.... Mannnnnnnnn.... psychological!!!!!

Octopeazy fo' sheezy!!!

1:33 PM  
Blogger nyraider said...

There’s nothing stirring. The only rumor surrounding Carr right now is that the fish are interested in him as well as Trent Green. That almost certainly means Culpepper is on his way out of sunny FL. If the Raiders were interested in Carr you’d think something would have surfaced by now.

The Raiders have been extremely economical with there FA moves this season. Hmmmm. What do you suppose they're saving up for???

2:01 PM  
Blogger TheFreakingPope said...

edI have to go on the record.

We shouldn't take Culpepper, even if he offers to work for free! The guy is an absolute bust.

My buddy is a huge Miami fan and I kindly share my DirecTV Sunday Ticket with him when his game doesn't conflict with ours.

After warning my buddy not to get excited, even I was surprised by how bad the guy played.

Awful. Plain awful.

2:13 PM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...

nyraider:

It appears that the Raiders are saving up to use the number one overall pick. It's how they intend to spend that pick which is causing the controversy.

But I agree with you. If they were planning on using that pick on a WR, you'd think that they would have addressed the QB situation in some other way than signing Booty.

The Raiders' interest in Rogers - all rumor.

The Raiders' interest in Schaub - all rumor.

The Raiders' interest in Vick - all rumor.

The Raiders' interest in Leftwich - all rumor (at least so far).

The Raiders' interest in Carr - all rumor.

The Raiders' interest in Culpepper - so far all rumors.

So the crux of your question is, "What quarterback are the Raiders interested in?"

2:14 PM  
Anonymous heartland raider fan said...

blanda rocked
Maybe Walter is the guy and they'll draft a QB in the 3rd or 4th.
Don't forget Kiffin's hiring press conference where Davis touted Kiffin's ability to recognize talent and his familiarity of most of the talent in the college ranks. Maybe there's a QB all of us geniuses don't know about that they have in there radar.

3:38 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

oops in their radar

3:39 PM  
Blogger nyraider said...

Heartland said: “Maybe Walter is the guy and they'll draft a QB in the 3rd or 4th. Don't forget Kiffin's hiring press conference where Davis touted Kiffin's ability to recognize talent....”

If that’s the case then I am prepared to trust Kiffin. (Until I see differently for myself, I am 100% on board with our revamped coaching staff.) However, I still don’t see Johnson as a viable first pick unless we unload our selfish, poor example and zero role-model receivers (i.e., Moss and Porter). Assuming Porter and perhaps even Moss are staying, I believe we’d be better served to trade down, maybe get Peterson or Thomas with our first pick... provided we stay in the top five.

3:55 PM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...

Good question, Heartland. I think that the Raiders will want at least 5 Quarterbacks in camp. The three that will be on the regular season roster, and two for camp fodder (just to throw passes and to get some experience, before being cut, or sent to NFL Europe, or the practice squad).

They have three - 1. Walter, 2. Booty, and 3. Reggie Robertson (Admirals, NFL Europe). These last two are either going to wind up in NFL Europe or the practice squad - or get cut. So we are in need of the two others who will make the opening day roster.

It is probable that the Raiders will use a draft pick for at least one. Normally, when the Raiders have used any lower round pick on a QB, it has been someone who was originally believed to be worth a high draft choice, but has dropped down for some explainable reason (i.e., Walter). But there's nobody who stands out like that this year.

To me, it seems likely that the Raiders will pick up a veteran quarterback after the draft or, in the alternative, get one in trade for a draft pick. In order for the latter to happen, there has to be a team which is set with two potential (and proven) starters. I don't really see one of those right now.

To me, it's looking more and more that either Quinn or Russell is slated to be a Raider. I fall in with those who believe that Russell shows more upside than Quinn.

4:05 PM  
Anonymous scorpio said...

blandarocked and other russell hype supporters. you guys are gonna be crying in your soup when al f-ing davis comes from left field and doesn't pick your boy. you just wait and see. you guys are gonna be so very disappointed.

when are you gonna wake up about your boy al? he lied through his yellow dentures about huff not being his pick. he sure had his chance to pick a franchise QB last year but he went and f'd that up didn't he?

a very smart poster from the merc raider forum was right. no-one can tell you guys anything man. you coaches who have access to game films and can break down every nuance of russells and walter's skills and have access to team inside sources know more than us pee-on fans who don't know crap. why not just throw walter out on the street? after all, he SUCKED after his 1st full year starting didn't he? after 7 games of the worst offensive scheme/coaching/teamates he doesn't deserve a fair shake huh? yeah baby. and you guys who aren't spending raider money all say go out and spend $30 f-ing million bucks on this fat cat are calling the right shot.

i almost WANT russell to get picked now. just so he can fall flat on his fat ass. i just hope for his sake but mostly the fans sake that he pulls through because we'll be paying that f-ing humongous salary for YEARS!

4:54 PM  
Anonymous raider00 said...

Raidertake,

When ANYBODY on the Raiders is cut, I'm shocked.

This is a team that keeps Gibson, & Brayton hanging around for God knows what reason.
Even when they cut Gibson, they quickly bring him back, as if they'll lose their golden gem to another team.

Even Langston Walker voided his own contract and left. If he didn't, I believe he would still be on the Raiders today. Probably would still have his starting job too.

That's been a huge problem for the Raiders of late. They want to promote the whole "family" thing, instead of promoting the "winning" thing like years ago.

The Raiders keep guys even if they suck, because we're a "family".
This is why there is no one who's jersey we would want(on offense).

Just win baby, doesn't apply anymore.
I hope Kiffen will be cut throat, and cast out the losers.

5:01 PM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...

Scorpio:

Your post is simply... well, strange, to say the least.

"you guys are gonna be crying in your soup when al f-ing davis comes from left field and doesn't pick your boy. you just wait and see. you guys are gonna be so very disappointed."

And then:

"i just hope for his sake but mostly the fans sake that he pulls through because we'll be paying that f-ing humongous salary for YEARS!"

Apparently we'll be paying that salary for years, even though he wasn't drafted.

Scorpio, calm down. If Al is going to disappoint us, and you seem to feel that he'd be right in doing so, why would you worry?

Why is he "fucking al" if he's going to do something that you agree with?

Regarding Walter, who said anything about throwing Walter out on the street. Seems to me, most of us have said that we draft Russell, a veteran, and have Russell, the veteran, and Walter compete for #1 this year. It doesn't sound like you just want Walter to get "a chance," it sounds like you want to hand him the keys to the franchise after last year's performance.

And please excuse us all for attempting to know what we're talking about by reviewing film and listening to prior coaches. I guess that discredits our opinion.

5:09 PM  
Blogger Raider Take said...

Good points, Raider00. I think we're both taking different angles to diagnosing the same problem.

The team's resistance to pruning leads to the problem of us having a ton of guys who could easily be cut or traded if the measuring sticks of of talent, effort or character were applied.

I would like to see our offense methodically and aggressively rebuilt, rather than relying on essentially the same cast of the past two years. It doesn't end at quarterback, but that's a good place to begin.

5:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bama7
Scorpio you are right on one count... none of us can guess what Al is gonna do. We're just wasting our time trying to figure him out. But I agree with NY Raider and RT and the others that are trying to put a leadership face on our team. Somehow I just see that in Russell. He's just got a confident swagger about him. A friend of mine was reminding me how he went up to Knoxville this year and watched Russell come back and beat Tennessee. Said it was pretty impressive because he threw some picks earlier. Granted Tennessee wasn't that great, but it was a reminder of yet another 4th qtr comeback where he was undaunted by earlier mistakes (in front of 100,000+ orange fans I might add)
Snake Stabler was like that. What I remember about him was that he was unfazed by his INTs. I'm holding a (signed!) Snake football card and other than the '74 and '76 season his TD to INT ratio looks pretty pissy. In 1975 it was 16 Tds to 24 ints (in 1978 it was 16 Tds to 30 Ints!) But Snake was all about leadership, particulary when the game was on the line. Didn't matter what he did earlier in the game. Then I think about Jeff George's 1997 TD/INT numbers that were so impressive (anyone have that stat?) and think about that 4-12 season. Great individual stats but you could never count on George on 3 and 10 or if the game was tight.
Russell will definitely need a running game and much coaching, but heck he is very gifted and has left the scouts drooling. He's a winner... I hope heartland and scorpio are bitching come draft day. But it'll probably be me throwing beer cans at Carr, Rodgers or Walter on TV later in the season. Or even worse, one of Al's "value" picks in the third round.
And for all those that keep comparing Carr's failed Houston tenure to Gannon's pre-Oakland days, forget about it. Gannon had the Chiefs like 13-3 in '97 (?) and then Shotty benched him for that first playoff game and the Chiefs lost. Gannon never flopped anywhere... except the superbowl when Garner & Wheatley were never used.

5:54 PM  
Anonymous raider00 said...

It really has become a bit of a sickness with the Raiders.

What other organization would watch Randal Williams play as badly as he did, and then reward him with a contract extention ?

It's like, once you put on a Raiders uniform you are part of the Raiders family for life no matter what.

This is bizzare. You can't elevate Randal Williams to Dave Casper's level simply because they wear the same uniform.

If any player wants to be part of the family, they must be made to EARN it by playing well, and winning, and if they do not, they should be shown the door, and replaced/upgraded, with better talent.

6:02 PM  
Anonymous scorpio said...

blanda- fyi - you haven't been posting here as long as some of the others but i HATE al davis not just now but always. he and his minion of yes people ie: trask, otto. HE is the reason our team is the doormat and laughing stock of the league. he is f-ing al because of his screw-ups, see: art shell. anyway, enough of that for now.

nothing wrong with getting a vet in here to but the reason i'm pushing carr is he's the best of the rest unless we trade for an experienced QB.

re: walter: why not give him a chance? a fair chance? after all of 7 games in a really bad season that wasn't all his fault, i cannot believe people are throwing him under the bus just because we have the 1st pick and can get anyone we want. i say we DON'T NEED A QB because al f'd it up last year when we could've had one of the 2 remaining franchise QB's in 06! can we skip drafting a QB this year and concentrate on building his supporting cast FIRST? with a rebuilt line, RB by committee and good receivers, walter (or carr) will be just fine.

i think kiffin will pull a kubiak and evaluate walter for a year and see what he's got.

7:05 PM  
Anonymous heartland raider fan said...

I dont get it. Have the Raiders cut down to the 53 man roster early this year?
Contract extensions and signings don't mean doodly squat until the final cut is made after the final preseason game? Then, and only then, do all the signings and extensions of those making the final roster mean something.
I swear some of you would bitch if they hung you with a new rope.

No Bama 7 I won't bitch (even though they wasted the pick) if they take Russell and I'll have an easier time supporting him as a Raider than I did Romanowski.

Raider Take ...did you ever think of changing the name of this blog to "Raider Boo-Bird Role Call".
Because what will make me bitch next season is if they draft Russell... and a bunch of idiots claiming to be Raider fans boo the starting QB when things aren't going well and cry for Russell.

8:15 PM  
Anonymous raider00 said...

Heartland,

You are correct. I want to give new HC Kiffin every chance to rid the roster of the losers and deadwood. I hope he does it.

The fact remains, however, that during a 2 win season, with Randal Williams dropping, and fumbling the ball all over the place, the Raiders as an organization, decided it would be a great idea to give him a contract extension.

This decision could not have been made based on his on field performance, but rather due to some misguided loyalty the Raiders felt they owed to Williams simply because he had put on the Raiders uniform and is now a sainted member of the Raiders family no matter how God awful a football player he is now and will be in the future.

Sometimes I feel as if there are some Raiders fans that don't bitch enough.

No wins on the road, 2 years of no wins in the division, getting beat by Rottenheimer, & Shanarat every friggin game, the losing piling up high each season.

It's time to start BITCHING already.

9:14 PM  
Anonymous heartland raider fan said...

Who are we supposed to bitch at ???
Kiffin? He hasn't even won or lost a game yet.

I think you're all losing sight of the fact of how good the defense is...and how close alot of those lost games were last year.

If the Raiders would have averaged a mere 7 points more per game last season they would have ended up at 8-8.
Surely... (not Shirley) if the Defense can play play as well (hopefully better) Kiffin's new offense will put the Raiders over the 1 touchdown margin needed. Which only furthers the point that Walter is more than adequate and that Johnson (immediate impact) is a better pick.

5:52 AM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...

Scorpio:

I'm aware that there are many people who waste their time hating Al Davis. All I ask is that you don't try to make me answer irrational hatred. You can't make Davis an ass for him doing what you want him to do. Still, this draft is Kiffin's. It's about what he'll do. And the only way any of us are going to be able to measure that is to wait out the season.

Still, in all, I expect that if the draft turns out to be a bad one, you'll tell me every pick was made by Davis. If it's a good one, you'll tell me every pick was made by Kiffin. Splitting down the middle, you'll tell me every bad pick was made by Davis, and every good pick was made by Kiffin.

As for Walter, who the hell is throwing Walter under the bus? Did bringing Rivers in to San Diego hurt Drew Brees' career? Do you read anybody here wanting Walter cut?

8:52 AM  
Blogger nyraider said...

Heartland-
no knock on our D, but some teams played us conservatively last year because they knew we couldn’t score. Hell, teams in our division didn’t play us to win, they played us “not to lose.” This was a factor in our #1 rated pass defense and probably contributed to our poor run D as well. Thus, we’re not as good or bad as we appear on either front, respectively.

IMO, it’s too much to expect our D to run another stretch of low-scoring games like they did last year, particularly if we field an offense that can score points and require our opponents to be more aggressive.

I believe Walter will need to be a little "more than adequate," to use your words.

9:13 AM  
Blogger raiderdecoachella said...

All I know is that in about a month from now we will know who we picked for our draft picks and for some of the people that come in this site it will be the worst picks ever, for some it will be good picks and for some it will be great picks.

I believe that no matter how these picks go it is going to take at least 2 seasons for us to really know if they were bad, good or great.

I am full board on this season, I like the fact that we have a young and enerjetic coach with a rebamped staff, we have a young defense (it should only get better) and the offense is getting loaded this year.

I always look at the positive of all the negative, we will be better next year than we were the last 4 years, there is a personal feeling that I am ready to call 1-800-RAIDERS and order season tickets (the only problem is that I live so far away from Oakland) I know that I will go watch them at least four times this year.

10:07 AM  
Anonymous Heartland raider fan said...

Lucky you...I live Kansas now. So season tickets only a dream now.
I haven't been to the Colliseum since I left California in 1993.
But there was a span of 6 -7 years when I would go to Denver or K.C. Now that is Fun!! You haven't lived until you've been drenched in Beer and soda, and called every name in the book by hundreds of fanatical morons.

10:38 AM  
Blogger nyraider said...

We received a compensatory 3rd round pick for losing Woodson... not bad compensation under the circumstances. We also received an obligatory 7th round pick. So we have 10 draft picks in seven rounds, including two 3rd round picks, two in the 5th round (thanks NE), and two in the 7th round. We have four picks in the top 100. Even if we do nothing to change our draft order, it has a lot of potential for a team in need... which we are!

10:51 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Scorpio:

You said: "no-one can tell you guys anything man. you coaches who have access to game films and can break down every nuance of russells and walter's skills and have access to team inside sources know more than us pee-on fans who don't know crap."

Then you go on to give us your sign Carr opinion. Classic! You have the access that us other fans don't?

No, you have opinions just like the rest of us. And for the record, yes I will be very disappointed if they don't draft Russell but at the end of the day I'm a Raider fan not a Russell fan so I will root for my team every week and opine on them the entire year.

Roy

11:19 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bama7
NY Raider, once again I must echo your comments. I am very afraid that our defense might be overated. Shottenheimer said after game one that they didn't really even get into most of their offensive gameplan... didn't have to because we couldn't score. Last year teams simply didn't need to try hard or be agressive on offense against us.. so who knows how good our D really is. The Bengals carved us up and spit us out. The Chargers, Chiefs & Donkeys all scored at points in the game when they had to. So who knows?
We're all talking about here aren't we? The deadwood that hangs around year after year after year. I agree, what's it take for someone to get the boot?
Most any LB free agent out there could do more than Williams. Huntley or Grant Irons could easily top Brayton's production. Why does Ryan not change this?
Why would we not dump Moss on Chicago for Briggs (and throw in one of those extra 3rd round or 5th round picks if we had to)?????
That way we could significantly upgrade at William's spot.

12:26 PM  
Anonymous scorpio said...

lots of raider news on the national front. check out john clayton's article about kiffin on espn.com and in si.com there's a front page of the raiders are on the cock.

WOW I CANNOT BELIEVE IT - THE WORD VERIFICATION ACTUALLY WORKED ON THE FIRST STINKIN TRY!

1:30 PM  
Anonymous scorpioi said...

from si.com's peter king:

5. I think you should not count Brady Quinn out of silver and black. Remember where you heard that first.

1:51 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What about Josh McComb from detroit? Anybody know the skinny on him? And where the hell did this booty kid come from, he chose baseball over football out of college and from what I hear he kinda sucked at it. Maybe he did come out of left field! Now we're picking up baseball retreads for gods sake!!!

2:18 PM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...

A very unfortuante misspelling, Scorpio...

"there's a front page of the raiders are on the cock."

2:33 PM  
Anonymous scorpio said...

whoops! sorry about that folks! i was about to start a class so i was in a rush. didn't mean that of course!

:o)

3:33 PM  
Blogger nyraider said...

Scorpio-
right from the pages of Rodney Dangerfield himself... "call us when you have no class." Or, in this case, blog us.

3:38 PM  
Anonymous heartland raider fan said...

Wow.... according to McDonald the Raiders are seriously looking at McCown. I like it. Detroit has him now under contract for another year though. Trade picks with Detroit for McCown and take Calvin Johnson.

3:39 PM  
Anonymous scorpio said...

heartland -
but this was the guy they brought in a last year and didn't want to play for us because he thought we'd draft a QB (mistake) so he signed with detroit. seems that it would be the same situation right?

anyway, heratland, since you live so far away are very seldom in town if at all, i only had one season ticket, one seat. i'm in section 208 (south end zone) - which isn't a bad view. this year i'll be buying 2 seats however, it'll take me a bit longer to get the funds together for 2 seats.

if ever you are in town, let me know and i'll be happy to have you come with me to a game. even if i only get the 1 seat, again, i'll be happy to give that up so you would enjoy a raider game live - my treat. just let me know ahead of time when you'll be coming to town.

3:49 PM  
Anonymous heartland raider fan said...

Wow Scorpio... thats a really generous offer. I truly appreciate it. Thank You. I would love to take you up on it some day.

4:28 PM  
Anonymous scorpio said...

heartland - you're on your own with the airfare and hotel though :o)

4:47 PM  
Anonymous gary said...

Scorpio:

>>>>
a very smart poster from the merc raider forum was right. no-one can tell you guys anything man.
>>>


I'd bet two million dollars you were one of the Raider fans ready to jump off a bridge saying THE EXACT SAME THING AS ABOVE after the Raiders lost four games in a row the year they went to the SB.

Admit it... You thought the season was over.

4:53 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bama7
When will the torture stop? McCown? This is the latest rumor? This writer, Pat Kirwan, supposedly is a USC insider and is close to Kiffen. Apparently this story has little meat to it. And of course Heartland likes the idea of bringing in a guy that had more receptions last year than passes thrown. Okay, I give up. Heartland... you're secretly working for the Chiefs aren't you?
Would you like Harlow back at left tackle too? How about Jeff George under center.
McCown? You got to be fu&^%$# kidding me!

4:54 PM  
Anonymous heartland raider fan said...

God it's fun pushing the buttons on you Russell lemmings.

5:08 PM  
Anonymous raider00 said...

I agree about Mclown. He had a chance to come here and compete for a starting job last year and passed.
Instead, he went to Detroit to be a backup. This tells me he has no fire, no heart.

The last thing we need is another player just happy to collect the old paycheck. We have enough of those already.

5:36 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bama7
Heartland... I feel like DeNiro in that bamboo treehouse in the Deerhunter. The guard keeps slapping me in the face, barking at me in Vietnmese... and the subtitles read as "Carr", "Rodgers" "Dinky dao", "Carr", Rodgers", "McCown'.
I give up... give me Quinn.

5:36 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well the Lions are currently talking with Carr. He was in Miami yesterday.

Then the lastest I just read is that Al Davis just has made a comparison of JR as the next John Elway!

Can anyone comfirm this?

Forget Josh McCown, the guy is a
has been. Has Al Davis really forgot what happen with Aaron Brooks.

5:46 PM  
Anonymous scorpio said...

bama7, i'll take quinn over russell any day!

gary, you lost 2 mil bubba. no. i didn't think that at all. and no matter what i think of al davis i just kept going to games and i never ever boo my team.

6:10 PM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

McCown...no thanks, I want a QB with the heart & confidence to EARN the starting role with no free handouts, jobs or $.

Pepper...no thanks, I want a QB with enough mobility to survive a full season.

Carr...no thanks, I want a QB with decent mechanics and doesn't thump his bible instead of bonding with his teammates.

Quinn...no thanks, I want a QB who is more concerned with winning a big game instead of looking in the mirror to make sure his hair is perfectly in place and admiring his washboard stomach.

JRuss...yes, please! Give me a poised leader who carries a quiet confidence, the swagger to lead 8 4th Quarter comebacks, unbelievable physical tool set for the pro game.

I echo Roy's comment "yes I will be very disappointed if they don't draft Russell but at the end of the day I'm a Raider fan not a Russell fan so I will root for my team every week and opine on them the entire year."

7:35 PM  
Anonymous heartland raider fan said...

I guess Kiffin isn't planning an offense that has alot of broken plays and scrambling.

"There isn't a throw [Russell] can't make properly,'' Kiffin said. "And the throws he can make, I don't know if anybody else can make them. He can go way over there and throw the ball 70 yards back over there. That's real exciting and everything, but how many times does that happen a year? About two in 16 games? That's a scout's dream to have a guy like that, but you have to dig deeper than that because that doesn't happen that much.''

Hmmmm this is interesting....
Kiffin's impression of Georgia Tech receiver Calvin Johnson: "He seems perfect for the most part. You research him and you can't find a bad thing. When you're talking about the No. 1 pick, you're looking for bad things. You want to find bad things. But you can't find any negatives on the guy. He's got unbelievable character, and with the way he practices, and the way he works in the offseason. I watched him at his workout day, and I swear he didn't even stretch.''

8:10 PM  
Blogger azraider63 said...

Bama7 (5:36)

LMAO....Too funny. I just watched the Deer Hunter last week.

Good stuff.

8:49 PM  
Blogger Corey said...

Urr Ahhhhhhh, Calico Jack:

Why does it matter to you what Quinn looks like or what he thinks he looks like? Does his looks threaten you? Brady is considered a "heart throb", and he done won how many championships? Who gives an ish about anyone's looks? Hell, to most, Peyton Manning is oogly, but so freakin' what. He's fine ass hell when he's winning football games. That should be the point. Who will lead us to the promised land or get us damn-near close? Quinn is poised, competitive, physically tough, mentally strong, and craves winning more than the Matt-Linert-spotlight. So type his name in parenthesis in the google search browser, then select video, and then watch the 20+ different highlight videos of his collegiate career. Do the same for JR and any other vet/FA of your liking. Don't just watch them; study, pause, and rewind them for a few hours. 'Cause right now, like Warren-G; "You can't seeeeeee what I seeeeeeeee."

"Bleeding Mercury since '67"

Octopeazy fo' sheezy - OUT!!

9:57 PM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

Corey - I couldn't give a Rat's ass what Quinn looks like ... which is my point. I was merely stating the fact that I want a QB who is a proven leader and winner when the stakes are the highest. Quinn has won absolutely nothing. 0-4 in Bowl games, 0-4 vs. USC. 8 chances with the chips pushed all the way into the center of the table and what have been the results of our fine GQ QB? El Foldo.

10:15 PM  
Blogger Corey said...

Calico:

"I want a QB who is more concerned with winning a big game instead of looking in the mirror to make sure his hair is perfectly in place and admiring his washboard stomach".

"I couldn't give a Rat's ass what Quinn looks like ..."

You claim you don't care about looks... I don't know, seems a lil' suspect to me.

How many QBs in the league right now have either dominated in bowl games or a conference opponent and then turn around and light it up in the NFL? Those stats would look fine on a resume; on a resume (echoing). I'm talking ability here. Payton is a tactition and a technician and he has dominated everyone but New England (USC) and the AFC championship (bowl games) countless times. Finally he has done it. You could never take the quality of being a student of the game from Payton; which translates to winning. It's the same for Quinn. Don't let bowl games blind you. So because Leinert had the misfortune of not capitalizing in probably the most important game on the biggest stage of his life, and also doubles as a Calvin Klein guy; he won't pan out? I'm not looking at bowl games; I'm looing at traits and qualities. No, I am no scout or expert by any means. But hours and hours of video dosen't lie. Hell, my fiance I watch one guy's video highlight, and then the next; over and over again; trading comentary and thoughts. She was with JR too for a good while. But again, the tape don't lie. Just our opinion. Oh yeah, JR should produce in time. But like my boy in the movie "Gladiator" put it, "Not Yet."


Octopeazy fo' sheezy

10:58 PM  
Anonymous heartland raider fan said...

Corey... You and your fiancee watch football videos "over and over", and make comments and express your thoughts?

Sounds like you both have a thing for those guys bending over in those tight little outfits.

Can you post a picture of your fiancee? We'd all love to see him.

5:38 AM  
Blogger nyraider said...

Corey-
You believe Quinn is a better prospect than Russell because of clips you studied "for hours and hours" with your fiance? Dude, hang on to her. She’s a good girl for putting up with that!

I’m just curious, what clip(s) of Russell did you (and your finance) see that convince you that Russell doesn’t possess all the skills he needs?

Both Russell and Quinn are the top QB’s in the draft for a reason, however, I’d rather take a chance on a proven winner.

NEWS: Raiders signed QB Jeff Otis. He is the distant nephew of Otis Sistrunk (that’s all I could think of). With our current QB roster, Walter must feel like a seasoned vet.

6:00 AM  
Anonymous Raider Nate 75 said...

Quinn's stock has dropped because of a lackluster workout day. He's still recovering from a knee injury, which may or may not require surgery. He made some good throws, but was lackluster in his accuracy, and pinpoint plays.
JRuss throws a deep ball with accuracy, and yes, as Kiffin said, "Only happens once or twice a season." But he also proved his accuracy in a real football setting. His quick release, and ability to pinpoint his passes on outs, slants, posts, and flags was tremendously above average.
Again, we have failed to see him in an NFL setting, but he is showing that he has the skills to excel in an NFL setting; which is what you look for in the draft.
Calvin Johnson shows some of the same. He has the looks of talent that Moss and TO brought to the table, but without the attitude. Again, we haven't seen his attitude put to the test in the NFL, where it becomes for $$$ to make a living, to where the focus becomes "me" because you have to market yourself to keep a roster spot that is not guaranteed.
I'd take my chances with both of these guys. I'm looking at this pick from a "need" perspective. QB is a valid "need" on our offense. Again, I'm holding to the fact that Walter should get a fair shot to start. But Walter needs some stiff competition, he shouldn't be a starter by default. I personally feel he won the job over Brooks last year, the offense seemed to run better with him at the helm in preseason and the regular season. Like Kiffin said at the owner's meetings yesterday, "I don't think Dan Marino could have won with that offense last year."
I'll take that a step further and say, "LACES OUT, DAN!"
I don't like the rumor of McNown, or Culpepper/Moss reunion. I think that is money wasted. I feel, and despite his failures in Houston, that Carr would be money worth spending. He will give Walter some competition for the starting job, he has a will to win, and was a proven leader in Houston. Living in the ATX, I drove down to H-town a few times to watch the Texans. I don't think he had a legitimate chance there. The years before Kubiak, he didn't have a running game to work with (much like Walter last season); and the coach was calling the majority of pass plays. Last year, he had a running back; but it was his first (and only) year under Kubiak. It takes at least 2 seasons to get to fully know a new offense. He may not have the "w's" or playoff experience, but again, this is a team sport, not individual. If you look at Carr's numbers alone in H-town, I think you will see he can be a strong QB in the right system.
Are there better QB's out there? Sure! But they aren't available. Out of the available veteran QB's, I think Carr has the best ability.

6:40 AM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

Corey aka Mr. Octopeazy (whatever the hell that means) -

Don't get things twisted. For a guy who says I'm a "lil suspect" for pointing out that I want a proven leader & winner at QB, you are the one obsessing over hours and hours of video. Doesn't being a proven winner and leader fall under your category of "traits & qualities"?

Yeah, you are right...the tape doesn't lie especially when you are watching ND destroy Army, Navy, and all the other cream puff opponents. How did the tape look vs. UCLA? vs. USC? vs. LSU? Did you and your "fiance" edit out all of Quinn's bloopers?

7:42 AM  
Anonymous heartland raider fan said...

Jeff Otis....NFL Europe QB

7:48 AM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...

If the Raiders don't draft Russell, I'll become a Chef fan! Just kidding, but I had ya goin', didn't I?

Goodness, gracious, great balls o fire! From Kiffin: "Things have to change because it hasn't been just one year. I know Al Davis realized that. He was hurt by that."

Somebody who realizes this has been going on for three years (developing for four) and that the culture needs to CHANGE! Mmmmm. MINTY FRESH!

Not sure how I feel about McCown. He's got some good press and a little experience when playing for AZ. But as someone to bring Russell along, I'd rather go older and more experienced. Ideally, I'd like to see someone who well understands that is career is winding down and wants to mentor someone to leave behind. Actually, somebody like Testeverde (green testicles), only a little younger. Is there anyone like that in the league?

8:46 AM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...

One wonders why, with all of Testeverde's experience, he didn't change his name to Testematuro (ripe testicle).

9:00 AM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

BR - If you are looking for a veteran mentor and not necessarily a #1 signal caller, Tim Rattay is worth considering. He is 30 years old and the classic overacheiver ... 6'0", 200 lbs. from a small school (Louisiana Tech) who has lasted in the NFL for 7+ years on his wits and determination. Both Russell & Walter could learn a thing or 2 from Rattay without feeling threatened.
JRuss/Walter/Rattay ... yeah, that's the ticket.

9:57 AM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...

This from CBS Sportsline:

"Kiffin insists that Davis has given him everything he asked for when he took the job, including free agents and the ability to pick the staff he wanted."

And this is the same thing that I've heard every coach of the Raiders say. But if Kiff fails to have success, we will hear that it's because Davis insisted on getting in the way, and failed to give Kiff what he needed to succeed. This will be true even if Kiff's first several years are successful, and then he has a bad one. I've watched this play out time and again.

As Scorpio claims that Davis only wants "yes" men around him, nothing could be further from the truth. EVERY coach has said that Davis does not like or want "yes" men. Davis wants people with enough knowledge to challenge him.

Gruden says that to this day. According to Gruden, he went to the Bucs because he had the chance to be a head coach in his home town - which almost never happens in the NFL. But the press still tells us that Gruden left because he hated Al's interference. Just like the press is still telling us that Al Gore claimed he invented the internet. But they've found that if you keep repeating the lie, it supplants the truth.

The problem with Turner was that he turned into a "yes" man, and lacked the courage to challenge Davis for what he wanted. The same was true of Joe Bugal. In Art Shell's second stint, he just failed to communicate at all with Davis - and with the team. I think Art's problem was that he put himself in a bunker mentality the first day the press started firing shots over his bow.

What we continually have with the Raiders is the press creating their own reality, and it's now been repeated so often as a given fact that everybody believes it.

It is true that nobody in the Raiders talks to the press unless they want to get word out to their fans. As a consequence, the press justs makes shit up, or follows "conventional wisdom" (which is almost always wrong). If you want to know about Al Davis and the Raiders, listen to the people who work, or have worked, inside the organization.

9:57 AM  
Anonymous heartland raider fan said...

blanda rocked

It would be better to present Gore and the media lying about the Global Warming Fairy tale. A total fabrication.


March 9, 1999; CNN interview with Al Gore;
CLAIM: “During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet.”
TRUTH: The Internet is an outgrowth of a Pentagon program established in 1969. In the 1980s, Gore supported legislation considered favorable to the Internet’s development.

11:06 AM  
Blogger azraider63 said...

Blandarocked,

Regarding Al Davis, I agree with you 100%.

Calico,

I'd be OK with Rattay, not totally excited but just OK. McCown, same thing.

11:13 AM  
Blogger azraider63 said...

Heartland is bustin' out with the politics! Multi-talented, aren't we? :)

11:17 AM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...

Heartland:

I don't want to make this a political site. However, I didn't know you were a scientist. My father is, has worked for NASA, and claims that global warming is quite real. But, hell, what do scientists know. Better to check with novelists like Michael Crichton.

Also, just so you'll know, the words create and invent are not interchangable. And the US Congress is not a technology laboritory, but a legislative body. Putting Gore's statement in context, he said that he led the way in writing and passing the laws which created the internet. Everyone in congress seems to be willing to give him that credit.

11:25 AM  
Anonymous heartland raider fan said...

Also, just so you'll know, the words write and support are not interchangable.

Gore supported the legislation he didn't write the bill.

Global warming is a religion ...no facts to back the claims.

11:36 AM  
Anonymous Raider Nate 75 said...

BR, I think what Heartland is trying to say, that Gore's claim about Global Warming caused by manmade things are falsified. Man-made carbon-dioxide floating in our atmosphere equates to only 4%, in which 1% of that is from humans just breathing (because we inhale oxygen, and exhale carbon dioxide).
So to put it in perspective, we can only change 4% of Global Warming gases that are man-made, while 96% still remain, that are naturally released into the atmosphere. With all of our technology and wisdom, Global Warming is out of man's control, and is a natural cycle (please refer to the Ice Age, and the melting of the Ice Age).
Global Warming is real, Gore's "facts" about Global Warming are over fabricated; just like interchanging the words created and invented. He's a politician, and that is what politicians do best.

11:45 AM  
Blogger nyraider said...

Must be a slow day for Raiders news and events.

11:45 AM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...

You're right, of course, Heartland. What do scientists and congressmen know? Better to make up our own conventional wisdom.

11:46 AM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...

Thanks, Raidernate75. I'll tell my father he's full of shit. I hope that won't be too hard on him since he's been studying the the issue for forty years.

I'll just tell him that he needs to listen to Rush Limbaugh more often.

11:52 AM  
Anonymous heartland raider fan said...

That's ok blanda rocked I'd be glad to tell him for you.

Typical liberal ....blame any dissent on Limbaugh because everyone knows conservatives are incapable of thinking for themselves.

1:13 PM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...

Who said anything about Limbaugh being capable of thinking?

1:17 PM  
Blogger azraider63 said...

Are you sure you guys didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night?

1:30 PM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...

I think that if we're going to divert from the Raiders, heartland and raidernate, we ought to take it over to BlandRocked. I am extremely uncomfortable with highjacking RT's site.

I'll take either of you on, any time, any place, but not here. Just let me know. Since I haven't written anything at BR recently, I'm not inclined to check for posts.

1:47 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bama7
For all you clowns that think Carr is an option. This is from Peter King's latest SI article. Read this and then drop Carr from your expert opinions...
Peter King's article: I think maybe we should have seen the Carr firing coming. Those close to Gary Kubiak say Carr did not progress much from the mechanical, non-instinctive player the coach inherited 14 months ago when he got the Texans' job.

Last summer, on a visit to Texans' training camp, I saw Kubiak micromanaging Carr. I thought it was wise at the time to throw so much into trying to save the quarterback's career in Houston. Looking back, you can see how much work Kubiak had to do, and why, in the end, it was too much to overcome. I wrote:

The other day, Carr threw a pass into a coverage scheme that he, and Kubiak, knew right away was the wrong pass at the wrong time. Terrible decision. And instead of soft-pedaling his criticism, which is the way Carr has been treated for four years as the Disappointing Golden Boy of Houston football, Kubiak offered this gem: "You've been in the league four years and you make that throw? There is no way you can make a throw into coverage like that!''

You've got to love a coach who does not come in and kiss the franchise quarterback's rear end. Because smooching is not what this quarterback needed. "David can't assume, 'I'm OK, we've just got to fix the stuff around me,' '' Kubiak told me after a Texans practice, sounding Parcellsian. "He's not OK. He's a long way from being OK. We all are.''

With Kubiak and offensive coordinator Troy Calhoun micromanaging his every move, there's no doubt in my mind Carr's going to be a better player this year. Will he be a franchise quarterback? I don't know. No one does. I have my doubts. He's got to do it under pressure. But he's going to have a chance, even though I think the Texans should have taken Reggie Bush instead of Mario Williams with the first pick in the draft because Carr needs another offensive weapon desperately.

Last Thursday, the day I watched Carr running Houston's talent-shy first-team offense, Kubiak was standing deep downfield, eyeing Carr's mechanics closely. Every so often, he'd see something, amble up and say something to Carr, then go back and resume watching him from afar. It's so fascinating why Kubiak was doing this.

Last winter, when Kubiak sat down to study every game Carr played last year, he noticed something fatal to quarterbacking success. He noticed when Carr faded back to throw, he consistently looked to the side of the field that was his first option. Imagine how crucial this is. If you're a safety, and you've scouted Carr from the end-zone coaches tape that every team sees, and you've seen that you can figure out the side of the field he's trying to throw to the second he begins his pass-drop, wouldn't that be a huge advantage?

When Kubiak first sat down with Carr to watch tape, he said, in so many words: Are you kidding me? You're an NFL quarterback, and you telegraph your throws so blatantly? So on this day, in this practice, Kubiak watched Carr take his drop and watched his eyes as much as his arm. He watched to make sure Carr was surveying the entire field on his drop, not just half of it.
END OF KING ARTICLE
Carr is a bust and you guys promoting him don't know what you're talking about.

1:52 PM  
Anonymous Raider Nate 75 said...

Bama7, this is exactly why Carr hasn't had a fair shot to do what he does. Tell me, when was the last time you performed your job well over-thinking yourself because you were being micro managed?

BR-I'm not trying to debate anyone on Global Warming, or anything like that, I'm just saying that Gore's flatuances about it are over fabricated to make himself look good and smart. There are differing opinions about the cause/effect of Global Warming within the realms of science. My opinion, it's like the answer for politics too, the answer is not to the far right, or the far left of the extremism people throw into it; but 99% is somewhere in between. Is it bad, yes. Can we, as humans, do better with it? Yes. Is the world going to end because of Global Warming? Probably not. That's all I'm saying.

2:03 PM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...

One last pot shot raidernate. I've discussed the science with scientists who study the issue (including my father) and the problem is very real. Will the human race die out in our lifetime from global warming? No. My father has no political agenda in this. He is a lifelong Republican born in heartland's company. He hails from KC.

Al Gore is specifically not running for office so that people won't say he's trying to scare people because he's running for something.

Don't listen to the politicians, don't listen to the novelists, don't listen to the radio hosts. Listen to the scientists who have dedicated themselves to the study of this (not the one's employed by Chevron). I think they just might know what they are talking about.

2:32 PM  
Blogger nyraider said...

Bama-
Like Carr, Walter seem to telegraph a lot of his passes last year. Where was the play-action, the misdirection?

Granted Walter's lack of success was largely a product of playcalling, but NFL defenses and individual defenders are way too smart for that S@%#. Misdirection helps make guys like Manning and Palmer so valuable. And you can't just go through the motions, you have to be convincing. A QB who has mastered this skill will display similar motion whether he's faking or not faking. Like a pitcher throws a change-up using his fastball motion.

QB's should take acting classes.

2:53 PM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...

You nailed it, NYRaider. That has always been my problem with Walter. At one point during the preseason, Walter's play action looked reasonable, but he completely let it go south by the time the season started.

Payton Manning is far and away the best play faker in the league. He spends the whole snap count looking, and even directing his players, in one direction, and then comes back and burns you in another. I don't think that Payton Manning is the best there has ever been. He's just the only one now that does something other than go through the motions.

2:59 PM  
Anonymous heartland raider fan said...

God give me patience..

1st of all.... a play action fake only works when the defense respects the running ability of the other team

2nd of all ....what NFL defender would have been stupid enough to bite on a fake with the pitiful performances of Jordan and Fargas last year?

3rd and finally... it was the pitiful run blocking scheme that was to blame for Jordan and Fargas' lack of running lanes.

4:16 PM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...

heartland:

Whether or not you have a decent running game, the defense must bite on the fake if they believe it. Someone has to make the tackle unless you have running backs who like to fall down all on their own.

4:56 PM  
Blogger nyraider said...

Heartland-
Despite your infinite wisdom, you missed the point. Do you read the whole post, or do you just jump in with your 1.5 cents after the first sentence. It’s more than play action, it’s looking off defenders. And it’s not just the Raiders QB’s, it’s every QB’s job. Some are just better at it than others. “Give me patience” while you go back and re-read all the posts that led up to your little rant.

5:02 PM  
Anonymous heartland raider fan said...

Why did Walter get benched last year?????????????

Because he criticized the play calling....to paraphrase him"It's like everyone in the stadium knows the next play." But to you who want to.. waste the pick, draft a QB people...it was Walter's "bad acting" there...there's the other .5 cent of my 2 cents worth

5:13 PM  
Anonymous heartland raider fan said...

If you have no running game what are you faking? the defenders run thru the lanes intended for the running back and tackle or pressure the QB
They don't respect the run so they've got nothing to lose even if it is a run because they're in position to make the tackle.

5:18 PM  
Blogger nyraider said...

Heartland-
nice comeback... all “.5 cent” worth. I really don’t disagree with what you’re saying, except the part about not taking a QB of course.

Ok, I understand you’re bitter about last year. We all are. And I’m not throwing Walter completely under the bus here. Here’s an excerpt from my previous post:

“Granted Walter's lack of success was largely a product of playcalling....”

However, even if you don’t have a running game you still need to “look off” defenders in the pass game. These guys get paid to read the QB (run or pass). If a QB’s eyes follow his receiver from the line of scrimmage through the pattern, there’s always going to be a defender waiting for the ball when it gets there.

This skill is inherent for some QB’s, while others need to live in a perfect world to get it right.

5:33 PM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

I'm jumping in late on the play-action fake discussion ...

I might be stating the obvious but it is worth noting a few simple points in regards to the Raiders lack of an effective play action pass.

Playcalling

(a) The Raiders did not establish a consistent rushing attack. More times than not, the team completely abandoned the run which makes the play action fake that much more difficult to run.

(b) Actually utilizing the play action fake on pass plays. The Raiders rarely attempted this very basic form of deception. In other words, a pass play was called where Walter didn't even bother to fake a hand-off.

It was these very elemental, common sense gaffes in playcalling by Walsh that drove me absolutely nuts. Keeping the D off balance, using plays to set up other plays, creating favorable match ups are all basic Football 101 in terms of offensive playcalling.

One of the chief reasons Kiffin was hired was his ability & accountability in playcalling. With the moves made so far with the coaching staff and free agent pick-ups, it looks like the rushing attack will be a major point of emphasis. By establishing a sound running attack, it will be so much easier to have more success in the passing game. Let's hope so!

P.S. Please stick a fork in the Global Warming takes. Enough already. This is a friggin Raider site folks.

6:31 PM  
Blogger nyraider said...

This whole thing is my bad. I should not have even mentioned “play-action.” My initial discussion stems from Bama’s post that Carr had been criticized for more or less telegraphing his passes to opposing defenses. It really had little to do with play-action, which is just one of many means by which a QB can misdirect the defense. The point that I tried to make and that Blandarocked articulated was that QB’s like Manning work to fool defenses before the play even begins, barking snap counts, pointing and directing traffic, looking off defenders, etc. It takes more than teaching for someone to truly be good at that.

6:57 PM  
Blogger Corey said...

Calico Jack

Surely you jest!

Octopeazy fo' sheezy? Translation; Octopus for sure.
Oh, let me guess; you're the only middle-aged white man on the planet who hasen't heard commercialized slang? Hell; ask your kids your name; urban style. They'll probably reply Calico Jeezy.

Any-who; that B.S. is gravy.

Moving right along. On to your exclamations. My "suspect" comment referred to your accounts and references to the young man's physical anatomy; and not your desire for a "proven leader & winner." I believe it is you, sir, who has it "twisted." And I really don't know of a thing that I obsess over. Let's see. No... I really can't come up with one. Now when I'm not on my evening watch police shift and studying to fly helicopters, I do find a little time for family and the Raaaaiidaahhs (Chris Berman); which includes comparing video footage on prospective Raiders. If this is your idea of obsessing.. well then, you sir, may be a tad bit up-tight. Just a tad.

On to "Q." You appear to be fixated on these measly bowl games. Big frickin' deal! It's cool to win one; but shazaam - It aint the ficken Holy Grail. In my book, a player's skillset (and I guess "Q" dosen't have one) is more important than a bowl game or two. Show me a person that often operates at a high level with a competitive drive (who infact is a leader), I'll show you a person that will not be denied and who will ultimately shatter the whispering echoes of his detractors (i.e. Tiger Woods - they started out hating; now they can't get his jock out of their mouths.

In the end, Championships in the Pros mean everything; to me. And bowl games... Well; you get the picture.

Your opinion; my opinion. We'll see in time. Audi (Translation; See ya)

11:23 PM  
Anonymous LK said...

On Quinn-
I think he has good, maybe even excellent skills, but something bothers me when I hear him talk. He comes across as a "me" guy. He's compared by Weis to Tom Brady but Brady is self-deprecating and humble and numerous times I've heard Brady say "I stunk today", even when he didn't. "Take blame, give credit" is the rule of thumb for QBs, or any leader for that matter. I'll admit I haven't seen or read everything about Quinn but I haven't missed an ND game in four years and don't remember him taking responsibiity for any losses. In contrast, I get a humble, team vibe from Russell.

6:15 AM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

Corey - I apologize for not knowing the meaning of "Ocotpus for sure" ... whatever. The last thing that I need to do is pretend to be "urban" or worry about acting hip with BS slang that means absolutely nothing.

Onward & upwards ... You are entitled to your opinion about Quinn who could very well turn out to be a good pro QB. If you want to discount the importance of a QB winning his fair share of big games including bowl games & rivalry games, that is your choice. All I know is that if I was a ND fan (which I'm not), I would have been very disappointed in Quinn's 4 year record of performance.

7:37 AM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...

lk:

What you say is essentially what Kiffin says. He describes Quinn as "an in your face" leader. He says that Russell's leadership is quiet. Teammates follow him because he has a self depricating, quiet confidence, and he was just brought up right.

It seems here, personality-wise, that the difference is somewhat like the difference between Rich Gannon and Jim Plunkett. Rich Gannon took us far with his in your face style. Jim Plunkett won us two Super Bowls.

I think that Plunkett had better teams to work with, so the Super Bowl comaprisons aren't really fair. However, what I remember most about Plunkett's time is the team's absolute loyalty to the man. If someone took a late shot at Plunkett, you could expect a riot on the field. There always seemed to be a certain distance between Gannon and the rest of the team.

Ultimately, Gannon was probably best for the team we had when we had Gannon, and Plunkett was likely best for the team when we had Plunkett.

Take a look at this current team. Do we need a Gannon or a Plunkett? The Gannon team was filled with aging veterans who had been in the league forever. The Plunkett teams were a mix of veterans and youth, transitioning from the '70's versions of the Raiders to the '80's version of the Raiders.

10:38 AM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...

There's actually another angle to what I said above. Both Gannon and Plunkett seemed to be extensions of their head coach. Gruden was an in your face coach, Flores was a reserved leader.

However, being a coach's extension can also be a bad thing. In Art Shell I, Hostetler was more of an in your face guy. Those teams were by and large successful, but only got as far as the AFC championship game. In Art Shell II, Brooks was more like Shell - quiet, emotionless. So Shell required an added ingredient from his QB which Brooks did not provide. Walter didn't really lead for lack of experience, and uncertainty about his position on the team.

Going back some, Stabler wasn't like Madden. But he was the link to the wild bunch. He translated for Madden on the field.

What kind of coach is Kiffin? In your face or reserved. What are his weeknesses? Upon which qualities does he need a QB's help?

10:58 AM  
Blogger azraider63 said...

Blandarocked,

I like the comparison you made with Gannon and Plunkett to Quinn and Russell as far as personality/leadership styles.

The only other thing to consider is that both Gannon and Plunkett were veterans while obviously Quinn and Russell are rookies.

I am curious how much that factor s into how well each of their personalities would be received...ala Gannon type or Plunkett type?

I hope that just made sense?

11:09 AM  
Anonymous LK said...

I think the Gannon/Plunkett is a fair analogy. Plunkett's teammates loved him, Gannon's teammates didn't kill him only because they won. Seems to argue again for JaMarcus.

12:29 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I've seen a few J. Russell interviews. He's not very articulate. Million dollar arm, Ten cent brain??? Jeff George ring a bell?

1:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bama7
I know I've been a big advocate of drafting Russell so I'm a bit jaded, but I'm starting to do the "Raider-conspiracy-paranoia" thing with Calvin Johnson. How many articles can you read where an opposing team's "scout or other type representative" makes the comment that Al Davis will have a hard time passing on the "can't-miss" Calvin Johnson? Or how many articles can you find that say Al should probably take the "safest" pick in the draft (Johnson)?
I seem to recall everyone lauding our pick of Gallery becuase he was a "can't miss... safe" pick remember? The safest pick in the draft they said. A sure pro-bowler for years to come they said.
Bottom line no one's a can't miss, safe prospect (and scheme can doom things for sure/Gallery). Any pick could be a bust. And this Johnson simply never played well against Georgia (my favorite college team). We pretty much shut him down and ruled the rivalry with Tech while he was there... and our corners were not very good. I just can't get past that. If he was so good why not do better than 2 catches for 15 or so yards your senior season? Just shows you how little influence a receiver can have in a big game. Calivin never beat Georgia, Tech's biggest rivalry.
And NY Raider, I too see Walter as being a lot like Carr.
Raider Nate: Carr's problems seem to run much deeper than micro-mangement
Carr should be a dead issue after reading King's article. Basically Kubiak did all the homework for others here. Carr is still doing the same dumb things at QB that he was doing when he came into the league. I believe these flaws are not correctable for him.
Calico- I too, could give a sh(* less about learning hip-hop culture. I keep waiting on it to die but doesn't. Gregg Allman called it when he said Rap was just short for Crap.
Je-Russ, if they're boomin the crap while your our QB I guess I can tolerate it. I can always slip on my mp3 and enjoy "When the Levee Breaks" on my own. Speaking of the Levee...
Heartland- I know we're supposed to drop the politocal stuff but global warming has to have some truth to it... they say the ocean is now several degrees warmer than it has ever been... and I'm telling you Hurricane season was never like it is now??
Okay, no more politics... both parties suck anyway.

1:55 PM  
Anonymous heartland raider fan said...

How many of the global warming influenced hurricanes materialized last year?

2:05 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bama7
Fair enough. Who knows?
Back to football or else everyone will be cursing me for bringing it back up!

2:17 PM  
Blogger azraider63 said...

Anon (1:37)

Being articulate has nothing to do with being smart, let alone having football intelligence.

I think David Carr is pretty articulate, but I don't want him as our QB. Jay Schroeder was articulate, and as far as I remember was a good student at UCLA.

Hummm? Joey Harrington ring a bell? He was a member of the National Honor Society in High School. I don't recall him ever winning a meaningful game.

Just because someone like JRuss is quiet and was raised in the country (Alabama) doesn't mean he isn't smart. I'm not saying he is or isn't. But I could care less how high his SAT score was, I only care about the scoreboard.

I think his win loss record at JSU speaks for itself.

2:34 PM  
Blogger azraider63 said...

Sorry, meant to say LSU

2:36 PM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...

Remember back, AZRaider63. Seems to me there was another QB in the league who everybody said was a stupid country bumpkin who'd never make it in the NFL.

I think that QB's name was something like... Terry Bradshaw?

3:11 PM  
Anonymous heartland raider fan said...

Lester Hayes had a stuttering problem....he wasn't very articulate either.

I would ask though if you think Russell's heroics, and antics, will be as effective in the NFL? There's been plenty of rifle armed QB's that have learned the hard way that forcing a ball into coverage isn't the same as in college.
Or if he's drafted should I adapt an attitude of.... "Oh well, that deep ball he threw into double coverage, that got picked off was as good as a punt"

3:52 PM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...

heartland:

If you haven't been following what the scouts have been saying you should know that they report that Russell also seems to have the best touch on his passes of any QB in the draft.

While, early in his LSU career, he tended to throw too hard on the short throws, they've coached that out of him very well. And watching film of Russell, he seems to do pretty decent job of keeping the intended receiver between the defender and the ball.

3:58 PM  
Anonymous heartland raider fan said...

Read the Post I wasn't talking about touch passes.
I was talking about foolish heroics.

4:04 PM  
Blogger azraider63 said...

Blanarocked,

I remember that QB. I believe it was "Hollywood" Henderson of the Dallas Cowboys that said Bradshaw couldn't spell CAT even if you spotted him the C & T.

Heartland,

Not sure what you mean by Russel's "antics". But I do agree that just having a big arm is not enough. I, however believe JRuss brings more to the table than that.

I would also ask, what good is it to have Calvin Johnson run down the field with no one to throw him the ball? Just because he is fast, can run a good route and catch the ball doesn't me our current QB's can get it to him. Maybe they can, maybe they can't. But it's the same unknown as JRuss, and I believe we need a QB more than we need a WR right now. Who knows, that all might change before the draft.

4:05 PM  
Blogger azraider63 said...

Heartland,

I hate to get into stats because they don't always tell the whole story...BUT,

52 TD's and only 21 INT's in his LSU career doesn't sound like "foolish heroics" to me.

4:11 PM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...

Good question, azraider63.

hearland, what "foolish heroics?"

5:01 PM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

Heartland Raider - Yes please do elaborate on "Russell's heroics and antics".

JRuss started all 13 games in 2006 and threw for 3,129 yards, 28 TDs and just eight INTs while completing an LSU-record 67.8-percent of his passes.

A 3.5 TD to 1 Int ratio does not sound like a guy throwing the ball up for grabs. A 67.8 percent completion percentage is not indicative of a QB who is relying solely on pure arm strength to move the chains.

6:59 PM  
Anonymous memdf said...

Another site, reliable for the most part, has indicated the Raiders are talking to and trying to sign Carr. The source also indicates that Mia, Sea, Cle, and Car are also interested.

There is no other info that would preclude Russell, (my pick) from getting drafted. And no indication that the Raiders would go with Carr as QB and draft Johnson. I hope not....

7:54 PM  
Blogger Corey said...

Anonymous (If the boot fits, wear it);

I could say the same about a particular brand of music. However, I will not lower myself to expressing a bias disdain for something I don't fully understand or better yet; am unwilling to understand. This brand of conduct is undoubtedly substandard to everything that I've been taught. (I underscore the word; TAUGHT).

'Moving right along. The notion of ridiculing the consensus #1 overall talent in the draft is flabbergastingly insane. And why? Because he didn't beat your frickin' team? Get the fizzy outta here!!! Un-freakin'-real!! I'm telling you; alot of you cats are blinded by this "big game/bowl game" hype. Let me say it again; "hype." Hell; a snake is a snake and a frog is a frog regardless of what habitat you surround him with. The same goes for "sound" players. They're going to flourish regardless. "Not that good" Get the blank outta here!!

Sheesh!!!

Octopeazy fo' sheezy!

5:31 AM  
Anonymous Raider Nate 75 said...

azraider63 posed the question basically of we can draft cj, but who will throw him the ball?
though i am for drafting jruss, i also believe that walter deserves a chance to play qb under a system that works. i also believe that this spot should not be handed to him.
with that said, we could draft cj, and walter would throw him the ball; to answer your question.
but why draft cj, when we are apparently keeping moss, porter, gabriel, curry, buchanon, whitted, morant, francis, and i heard the rumor that james jett is coming back from retirement? another receiver is not going to impact this offense, and it is a position not really void of talent with the exception of whitted and jett coming back.
walter and jruss have similar strengths. both have a strong arm, both have zip on their passes, both have quick releases, both have pocket awareness, and both are unproven.
walter's weaknesses are arguable, at best, due to the fact that we haven't seen him play in a proper nfl system. but, he has the tendency to under throw wr's, and throws behind them at times. also i wasn't truly convinced that he was 100% from his shoulder surgery he was recovering from; and his arm tired out as the game and season progressed. now we can argue back and forth, was it because he wasn't fully recovered, or was it because he was on his back 46 times in 8 games? i think it was both. i think the sacks, and the hits he took last season didn't help his arm and shoulder. that's my concern with him, can he continue to take a beating like that (which he will in the playoffs), and lead us to victory.
jruss' weaknesses that concern me, is when he scrambles he tends to put the ball on the turf more than what i would like to see. he doesn't protect the ball well when he is scrambling because he is looking to pass, and not really scramble (which is why he would scramble for 2 or 3 yards at a time). i think he's got to make a decision there. how long to i try and buy time to pass before i scramble? because in the nfl, the speed doesn't give you a lot of time to wait. he can roll out, but he's going to have to learn that if nothing opens up immediately, he's going to have to run; and protect the ball.
when it is all said and done, walter and jruss are similar qb's. they show great pocket awareness, and have the tools to be above average qb's.
i say we draft jruss, and sign carr as the vet qb; let them box it out for the starter, and then we have 3 solid qb's on the roster. if we need to, we have trade bait for picks in the future, or for a player to fill a different gap.

6:36 AM  
Blogger azraider63 said...

raider nate 75,

Great points. My question regarding who will throw the ball to CJ really stemmed from an earlier post from someone that asked what good would it be to have a big arm QB (JRuss) when all it will do is result in long bomb INT's. (statement not verbatum)

For the record, I like Andrew Walter and watched his career here in Arizona. I do think he can get the ball to CJ.

The point I was trying to make to the poster was that to say that: just having a one dimentional big arm (which I think JRuss brings more to the table than that) does not mean it will only result in "foolish heroics" as he stated.

If someone believes that, then you would have to believe that having a fast WR like CJ will only result in him running down the field with no balls being thrown his way.

I think both scenarios are silly, but I was trying to make a comparison statement.

Like we both said, QB is a much higher priority than WR at this point in time. I like the AW, JR, DC qb lineup you suggested, as long as it's AW or JR starting. May the best man win.

9:16 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bama7
Agree, good points Raider Nate... only change I'd make (and others will pounce on me here) is I'd pick up Culpepper instead of Carr if available. I like Culpepper for a mentor to Russell and if he ever heals up he's pretty solid.
Draft is exciting: With the 6 picks we have at Rds 2-5 we can really plug some holes. I was thinking Jarrett with the 2nd round pick but he ran a VERY slow 40... shades of all of those WR's that the Lions picked up. And since it looks like R Moss is staying I say look hard for a DE and LB help. There are so many good LB's and DE's in this draft!! So many that could be picked up in rounds 2-3 that are better than Brayton & Williams... hands down.
Posluzney PSU, Lawrence Timmons FSU, Quenton Moses GA, Charles Johnson GA, Jay Moore NE...

4:31 PM  
Anonymous franco said...

Bama7-

If you would think about a receiver second round, and we do pick up JRuss in the first, should we/can we pick up an LSU receiver? I know we have craploads of receivers, but if we were to pick one, why not have someone JRuss has already meshed with in the college ranks come on board?

I wouldn't personally go receiver second round, but just a thought.

4:36 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bama7
Well, what's intriguing about Bowe is they are saying he's the best blocking receiver in the draft (on top of his other skills). Sounds like a Hines Ward to me.
I was just looking at a list of LB's in the draft and can't believe I left Brandon Siler off my list. Siler is tough with a capital T.
We are in really good position to pick up some really good football players.

5:24 PM  
Anonymous raider00 said...

I think we should take a much closer look at our WR's.

Randy Moss: Great talent, I suppose, but will quit at the first 3 game losing streak.
To me, the Raiders are pissing in our faces by bringing this clown back.

Jerry Porter: Really don't know what to expect from the pouter. He could be anywhere from great to mediocre. A telented wild card, I would say.

Ron Curry: A real gamer, with a big heart, and excellent hands.
Only fear is will his legs hold up. I hope so.

Alvis Whitted: the 33 yr old so called deep threat. A journey man for his whole career, seems to have found a home with the Raiders.
Lucky us.

Johnnie Morant: Finally got a little peek of Morant late last season, and unfortunately, he didn't show the greatest hands.
He's still young, and has good size/speed, but must do a better job of holding onto the ball.

Will Buchanon: Played great in pre season, but can't make the big squad. Really a huge unknown at this point.

Carlos Francis: Little speed burner, who seems to be hurt all the time. Could factor in as a kick returner, but everything else is up in the air.

Doug Gabriel: A solid fourth receiver, but not much more. Couldn't cut in on a playoff team, so I wonder what the Raiders see in him. Probably just another guy the Raiders like having around, even though they could do better.

When you take into consideration our spotty TE play, you really have to ask yourself an honest question, just how deep is our WR position ?
The answer to me is, not very.

5:40 PM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

RaiderNate: I have a slightly different viewpoint about our WR depth. However, more importantly, I also think from a purely practical standpoint that drafting a WR would have little to no impact on our offense in the year 2007.

Most of my reasoning is based on the likelihood that Moss returns in 2007 which by all indications seems like a sure bet. Think about the following;

If Moss returns, the majority of snaps will be 2 WR, 1 TE, 1 RB, 1 FB. On those ocassions when we have 2 WRs, Moss & Porter will receive the majority of snaps. On 3 WR sets (roughly 30-40%), it will be Moss, Porter, and Curry.

With a new coaching staff in place, everyone, including WRs seem to be getting a fresh start to prove their worth.

Moss: Whether we want him to come back or not, if he is in uniform, I can't see him being benched. Too much $$ and talent is wrapped up into Moss to think otherwise. If 2007 is another disaster year with Moss being unproductive and a malcontent, then all bets are off for 2008 in terms of him returning.

Porter: Seems to be excited about 2007 and already building a good working relationship with Kiffin.

Curry: Solid, team 1st, productive WR.

Gabriel, Morant, Buchanon are adequate depth for the 4th, 5th, and 6th WR.

Madsen can be used as a TE/WR hybrid.

I am hopeful that Whitted and Francis are cut.

My point about the 2007 season is that if we were to pick up a WR in the 2nd, 3rd, or later rounds, how is this WR going to ever see the playing field?

In my estimation, we will have to ride out the year knowing full well that Moss, Porter, and Curry will recieve the majority of playing time. I just can't see any WR, especially in the 2nd-7th rounds seeing the playing field.

7:17 PM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

Check that last post ... I meant 'Raider 00' not RaiderNate.

Calico Jack

7:18 PM  
Blogger Corey said...

Calico Jack,

You bring up good points in reference to our WR saga. I agree about the playing status of WR's selected from the 2nd round on. It's also probably true for a first rounder to include CJ2. But I wouldn't mind seeing CJ2 on spot duty for the first year; as Moss or Porter will be cut loose in '08. Which one? I don't know. But my inate sense tells me that this is the end of the line for one of them; which starts a new era for our WR corps. CJ2, JR, BQ (or should I say GQ) are bountiful talents. Whatever one that dons the Silver & Black this year is the mystery of the hour.

10:43 PM  
Anonymous gary said...

Calico... I respect your opinions... what makes you think that Moss will be back? 90% of the Raiders are now working out with the new coach... Moss is nowhere to be seen.

I think the Raiders are as likely to cut Moss (if they can't trade him) than have him play.

Al let Shell leave Porter on the sidelines because he had a grudge against him... the coaches are calling the shots here now. IMO, Kiffin wants Moss GONE.

11:37 PM  
Anonymous raider00 said...

Calico,

Looks like you and I had the same thoughts on our WR's at about the same time.

But I agree, better not go into the draft thinking we are set at WR.
If last season showed anything, it showed we need much help EVERYWHERE along the offense.

It probably can't be fixed with one draft, but I would expect our draft to be heavily tilted toward the offense.

12:10 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

We're drafting Jamarcus Russell. It's the obvious thing to do. If you disagree, just stop and THINK for a moment....

There, now do you see why it's soooo fucking obvious?

-kevin

12:38 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Have no fear my fellow Raiders... I believe that everything is going to happen as it should be.


... by the way, we're drafting JR or I'm a monkey's uncle.

4:22 AM  
Blogger nyraider said...

RaiderOO-
Good point. "The Raiders can't be fixed with one draft."

My guess is that Moss does not play for the Raiders this year. Yeah, Kiff is playing nice to the media about Moss, but it's hard for me to believe there's any respect there... more like contempt.

With or without Moss, WR is not a position of immediate need. But, if we do take a receiver, LSU's Bowe wouldn't be a bad choice. He's big and has good hands, and he and JR are well familiar with each other.

5:30 AM  
Anonymous heartland raider fan said...

I guess once again I'm the idiot who doesn't see it like the rest of you.

You don't see an immediate need at wide receiver? (thinly veiled rationalizations to not endorse drafting Calvin Johnson)

Moss....Gone or internal exile....Kiffin is taking the high road on the Moss situation with the media.Moss' lack of communication (no show at voluntary camp) with the new coaching staff speaks volumes. He will be either traded or released. (Remember Al Davis and Marcus Allen? Davis will deal with Moss accordingly and will hurt him if he has to take a loss)
Porter....I don't know what you all see in him? Big deal he changed numbers and claims he's changed. Besides that... in 7 seasons he's only started every game in one season. He's injury prone! He also has only come close to showing the potential he is capable of in 2 of those seasons.
In short....he's not dependable.

Curry.... I love the guy, but he's been injury prone too.

The rest of the WR's.... not starting material.

I see it as time to weed the Garden
and put in some new plants and I really like Calvin Johnson.

6:54 AM  
Blogger azraider63 said...

Heartland,

I don't want to speak for everybody who is of the opinion (like me) that we do not have an immediate need for a WR, however I think we are saying that the Raiders are not in immediate need of a WR COMPARED to the QB position.

I think most of the people leaning towards that opinion (me included) suggest we draft a WR with the second pick. I believe we can get a better quality WR with the second pick than we could get a quality QB with the second pick. The drop off in QB tallent after JR & BQ compared to the WR's. (No discredit to CJ, but there are some other good WR's worth drafting)

Only IMHO

Have a good weekend...I know I willout here in sunny AZ.

7:29 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bama7
Just read two CBS writers that are calling, almost begging, us to take Calvin Johnson. Pete Prico's column was very long and bordered on being annoying. He talks about drafting a QB not being a "fix" for us, then goes on to say WR isn't a fix either, but Johnson is "safe". There's that term they keep using... safe. Then Prisco goes on to recommend Carr to us. Show how much he knows. Just go back and read Peter King's article on Kubiak and then run like hell from Carr. There's a reason no ones jumping out there snatching Carr in a panic. NFL offensive coaches see clearly Carr's problems. So Prico, shut the Fu87 up.
Another article I read this morning (PLain Dealer) has Cleveland's Phil Savage telling others to keep low his high interest in Russell. There hoping we take Johnson too.
Again, Superman Johnson had 2 catches for 13 yards, no TD's against Georgia... his biggest rival. He did have some good games, but where was he against rival Clemson? 31-7 loss... no catches and -4 yards rushing!
So Prisco, we're supposed to improve our team by adding this "big game bust" ACC stud to Moss, Porter & Curry? Then what, genius?
Again, I think Johnson is a good player, but we should take Russell or Quinn. I prefer Russell.
Makes no friggin sense whatsoever.

7:40 AM  
Anonymous heartland raider fan said...

I could really give a Rat's Patoot if Calvin Johnson had "1" bad game against Georgia.
Georgia Tech's QB sucks. So who really had the bad game, Mister Georgia is my favorite team I'm totally objective I want J Russell or I'm gonna cry?

8:48 AM  
Anonymous heartland raider fan said...

Bama 7 .....at least you got CBS right. The article you referred to in your post was written by Clark Judge.
And the article's clear main focus was on how important it is to get the best available athlete, even to the point of overlooking a positional need....Period.

9:07 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bama7
Heartland I mentioned two CBS writers. Two, Heartland. They say basically the same crap, and you're right, I was angrier at Clark Judge, so apologies there. But, Prisco's article is linked below and it's the same thing... more Russell slamming in favor of Johnson... so there's really no debating my point, which was how did two mediocre cornerbacks at Georgia totally make Johnson a no factor.... two catches for 13 yards.
And you just proved many others points on this board when you say it was the fault of his QB at tech (Ball). That's what we're trying to say, and yet, you unconsciously just destroyed you're own argument for Johnson. How much influence did Mr. Johnson have in their biggest game of the year? Zero. Qb's fault or his own, a receiver can only do so much to help the team... and you want to take him with the 1st overall pick?
Here's the Prisco article:
http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/10097800

11:07 AM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

Gary - We will know more about Moss status in 2 weeks when the 1st mini-camp begins. I wouldn't put too much stock into Moss missing these pre-mini camp, voluntary workouts. He also didn't attend these workouts the previous 2 years.

I could be wrong about Moss coming back in 07. Does anyone see a legitmiate trading partner? Or will Moss just be cut come June 1st? Who knows? All I know is that Kiff went into great detail this week with reporters about Moss playing the 'x' WR and Porter playing the 'z' WR and it just sounded like a foregone conclusion that Moss was coming back. Either Kiff is the greatest actor/BS artist of all time or he was being sincere.

Heartland Raider - To answer your question, no, I don't see an immediate, pressing need at WR (with or without Moss). I would be more than comfortable rollin with Porter, Curry, Gabriel, Buchanon, Morant, and Madsen. Let's also not forget that under Kiffin's offense, our RBs and FB will now be used as pass catching weapons which will help diversify our offense, move the chains, and stretch the D's coverage responsibilities. If we need to spruce up our "garden", let's do so sensibly in the later rounds. Also, as fans we all have our draft preferences but remember it is a 2 way street. You like to crack on the JRuss supporters but when the tables are turned on your boy CJ, you get rattled & hyper-sensitive. If you are going to dish out the insults (ie. cry baby) be prepared to get hammmered in return. Calico Jack

11:43 AM  
Anonymous heartland raider fan said...

Wow you're amazing Calico ....you can actually read inflection and emotion in blog posts. You missed your calling. (read:amazing Kreskin) Unfortunately you mistake sarcasm and amusement for being rattled.

Bama7 you might want to actually "read" Clark Judges' article.
You want to compare Walter and Ball.
Alrighty then...Ball a 44% completion ratio behind an Offensive line that yielded only 19 sacks and a running game that produced over 1500 yards in 13 games. Wow real pressure on the passer there.
As opposed to Walter 53% compltetion ratio behind a line that yielded 46 sacks and a running attack that produced 1295 yards in 16 games.

Clark Judge was right in his article....
"People who once touted Andrew Walter started shredding the poor guy last year when he flunked as a starter.
Please. He didn't have a chance. He dodged unblocked pass rushers every time he retreated to throw and operated in an offense that was such a mess the coordinator was canned during the season, the head coach was canned after one year on the job and the team managed a league-low 16 touchdowns, or 15 fewer than LaDainian Tomlinson.
So finding the next Daryle Lamonica corrects all that?"

So compare apples and oranges all you want.

2:23 PM  
Anonymous gary said...

Calico: If we decide to keep him, I hope its something that Moss decided on, not Al. I don't know if I can handle watching one of the best WR's in football jogging through patterns and alligator arming perfect bombs for another season.

I still think this is a smoke screen for a trade. Why would anyone trade with the Raiders if they suspected he would be cut in June?

2:35 PM  
Anonymous gary said...

Heartland:

By Clark Judge
CBS SportsLine.com Senior Writer

>>>>
" Only if he's the best player in the draft. And he's not. Listen, you absolutely, positively cannot afford to screw up the first draft pick, and there's always considerable risk when you're talking quarterbacks."
>>>>

And there ISNT at WR??????????????

Yea, how did picking "Meshawn" first overall work out for the Jets?

Or name a WR picked early that has helped a crappy team out AT ALL?

How did Peter Warrick, Charles Rodgers, or Larry Fitzgerald help their
teams?

Clark Judge = MORON.

2:41 PM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

No worries Heartland Raider. The only real point I was trying to convey (but failed to make clear) is that all of the Raider fans who visit this site have their own opinions and draft day preferences.

For the most part, the folks who are behind JRuss believe he is a unique & gifted franchise type QB. I would also venture to say that most of the JRuss endorsers want Walter to have a chance to compete although there are doubts about him being a #1 QB.

The folks behind CJ believe that Walter and/or a vet. QB is the route to success.

What it seems to boil down to is the need/importance of the QB vs. best player available argument.

2:51 PM  
Blogger nyraider said...

Heartland said-
"...So finding the next Daryle Lamonica corrects all that?"

No! But neither will finding the next Randy Moss.

How many ways can this be said? We have competent receivers, but we don't have adequate representation at QB. Your logic on this point is like adding 2 + 2 and getting 3.

I quess it doesn't matter to you who plays QB as long as he's throwing to Calvin Johnson. But even that theory has flaws, because Johnson is sure to have is playing time limited by Moss and Porter, both guaranteed starters if they are retained. So how is Johnson's presence make an immediate impact?

3:15 PM  
Anonymous heartland raider fan said...

Duhhhhh.....with Johnson, Porter and/or Moss are expendable.
and NY raider the quotation marks in my post weren't a mistake, i was quoting Clark Judge from his article...a good read if I say so myself.

3:48 PM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

In the last 36 years of professional football, or the modern era, 15 WRs have been drafted in the top 5 picks. 2 WRs have been taken #1 (Irving "keep sharp objects away from me, coke-head" Fryar & Me-Shawn "just throw me the damn ball" Johnson).

Of these 15 WRs drafted in the 1st 5 picks in the past 36 years, NONE of these players have made a noticeable impact to improving their team's fortunes.

Is this a coincidence? Or is because the WR is not a high impact, high value position? Clearly GMs & personnel experts don't place a high value on the WR position otherwise there is no logical explanation for why only 15 WRs have been taken in the 1st 5 picks over the past 36 years.
If anyone can make a case for a highly drafted WR making a key differnce in their team's improvement, I'm all ears.

The idea of taking CJ #1 is flawed for a few key reasons:

(1) WR is not a pressing need
(2) QB is a pressing need
(3) WR is a low impact, low value position
(4) QB is a high impact, high value position

5:18 PM  
Anonymous heartland raider fan said...

Irving Fryar went to a superbowl...no impact??

Here's the difference....
On his impression of Georgia Tech receiver Calvin Johnson: "He seems perfect for the most part. You research him and you can't find a bad thing. When you're talking about the No. 1 pick, you're looking for bad things. You want to find bad things. But you can't find any negatives on the guy. He's got unbelievable character, and with the way he practices, and the way he works in the offseason. I watched him at his workout day, and I swear he didn't even stretch.''

ALL of the WR's you criticize had known downsides, Johnson has none.

5:36 PM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

Heartland Raider - You don't want to go down the Fryar path amigo ... it will make all of your arguments look rather silly.

In Fryar's rookie season (1984), as the #1 pick in the entire draft ... drum roll please ... he had a whopping 11 receptions for 164 yards, and 1 TD. WOW! What a huge impact! In Fryar's 9 years with the Patriots (1984-1992) he went to 1 pro bowl. For his career, Fryar averaged 50 receptions, 750 yards, and 4 TDs. These are not the type of numbers that you want to hang your hat on as far as investing a #1 pick on a WR.

Granted, CJ is a wonderful football player. No one disputes that he should have an excellent career. The point that I can't seem to get through to you is that the WR is more of a complimentary position. It just doesn't have the value or impact as say a QB, pass rushing DE, a LT, RB, or even CB. Plain and simple ... the WR is an important position but it just doesn't warrant a #1 pick.

9:07 PM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

Check that...Irving avg. 5 TDs per season in his career vice 4.

9:09 PM  
Anonymous raider00 said...

Irving Fryar went to a SB, hell yes. And he got his butt smoked by defense.

Meshawn Johnson WON a SB, we should remember well, in 2002.
Again, nothing he did special, but because of great defense.

I know our offense needs pretty much everything, but let's not forget the D.
Ours is good right now, with a few smart moves, it could be great next season, and that, more than anything, might be the best way to go right now.

9:10 PM  
Anonymous heartland raider fan said...

Irving Fryar had 12,785 yards in his career...that no impact bum.

The WR in a west coast hybrid offense has as high of a priority role in gaining yardage as the running backs.
The vast majority of throws a QB makes in that type of offense are short, ACCURATE, timing passes, not 70 yard bombs on the fly.
Kiffin made that point.

9:30 PM  
Anonymous heartland raider fan said...

The last WR the Raiders took in the 1st round was a no impact bum too.....Tim Brown

9:37 PM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

Here are the real numbers to put some perspective on Fryar's career; 12,785 carer yards divided by 17 seasons equals 752 yards per season. If you took his statistics one step further ... Fryar played in 255 games and average 50 yards per game. Fryar had a nice, fairly productive career but to act like he was a high impact player is foolish.

Also, I'm not debating whether there have been WRs who have been drafted in the 1st round who have had stellar careers. The thrust of my argument is two fold;
(1) Top picks like #1-#5 carry a certain value. These picks should be used whenever possible on a position of high impact. Positons of high impact are universally agreed upon by GMs as QB,DE,LT,RB, CB.

(2) The WR position more times than not does not merit a high draft choice (ie. the 1st 5 picks). The further you do down in the draft order, the more sense it makes to take a WR.

The example of Tim Brown doesn't really apply since he was taken with the 6th pick.

Just from a historical perspective, take a look at the last WRs taken in the 1st 5 picks and honestly tell me which ones had a big impact on their team’s success:

1971 4th pick Buffalo Bills take J.D. Hill (AZ State)

1972 4th pick St. Louis Cards take Ahmad Rashad (Oregon)

1978 3rd pick New Orleans Saints take Wes Chandler (Florida)

1979 5th pick Buffalo Bills take Jerry Butler (Clemson)

1980 2nd pick NY Jets take Johnny "Lam" Jones (Texas)

1984 1st pick NE Patriots take Irving Fryar (Nebraska)

1984 4th pick Philadelphia Eagles take Kenny Jackson (Penn State)

1992 4th pick Washington Redskins take Desmond Howard (Michigan)

1995 4th pick Washington Redskins take Michael Westbrook (Colorado)

1996 1st pick NY Jets take Keyshawn Johnson (USC)

2000 4th pick Cincinnati Bengals take Peter Warrick (Florida St.)

2003 2nd pick Detroit Lions take Charles Rogers (Michigan St.)

2003 3rd pick Houston Texans take Andre Johnson (Miami)

2004 3rd pick Arizona Cardinals take Larry Fitgerald (Pitt)

2005 3rd pick Cleveland Browns take Braylon Edwards (Michigan)

11:07 PM  
Anonymous heartland raider fan said...

The example of Tim Brown doesn't really apply since he was taken with the 6th pick.

OH really????
Then Jerry Rice another 1st round pick definately doesn't count. He was the 17th pick.

A 1st round pick is like a rose, and a rose by any other name, still smells the same.

So if the Raiders had the 6th pick and Russell and Johnson were available, it would be ok to take Johnson????

11:21 PM  
Blogger nyraider said...

No, because we still need a QB much more than we need a WR. Now, if you could say definitively that Johnson is a better prospect than Russell, I would agree with picking Johnson.

5:55 AM  
Anonymous heartland raider fan said...

Ny Raider, you have no intentions of changing your mind.
No matter how compelling the case is for Johnson.

http://sportsline.com/nfl/story/10098564

7:21 AM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

Heartland Raider - Please do me a favor and read my entire post next time before you pop off with more foolishness. It is obvious that you don't read things in the proper context. The overwhelming historical data went right over your head. That's ok.

As I state: "Also, I'm not debating whether there have been WRs who have been drafted in the 1st round who have had stellar careers. The thrust of my argument is two fold;

(1) Top picks like #1-#5 carry a certain value. These picks should be used whenever possible on a position of high impact. Positons of high impact are universally agreed upon by GMs as QB,DE,LT,RB, CB.

(2) The WR position more times than not does not merit a high draft choice (ie. the 1st 5 picks). The further you do down in the draft order, the more sense it makes to take a WR.

Yes, Tim Brown had an awesome career but does not apply to this discussion. WHY? Because as I mentioned above, the further you go down the draft order, the more sense it makes to take a WR. WHY? Because we are discussing who to take with the #1 pick.
WHY? Because Brown was taken 6th NOT 1st.

No one is disputing whether or not great WRs like Tim Brown or Jerry Rice were drafted in the 1st round. To use your words, duhhh.

You write "A 1st round pick is like a rose, and a rose by any other name, still smells the same.

(I could disagree with you more.) To treat our #1 pick the same as say New England treats their #30 pick is asinine. There is a hell of lot more value riding on our #1 pick, obviously.

You write "So if the Raiders had the 6th pick and Russell and Johnson were available, it would be ok to take Johnson????"

(Why deal in these silly hypotheticals? How about just dealing with reality which is that we have the 1st pick. Both Johnson and Russell would not be available at #6 but if you want me to play along ... If both Johnson and Russell were available at #6 and we had this choice, I would take Russell because I believe the QB is a higher valued, impact position and the Raiders need to upgrade the QB position more than the WR position. However, you can clearly understand how a team whose QB situation is set would take a great prospect like CJ. For example Tampa Bay has invested in Simms, Garcia, and Gradowski so it makes more sense for them to take a WR.

12:01 PM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

Heartland Raider: You have no intentions of changing your mind.
No matter how compelling the case is not to waste a #1 pick on a WR.

12:05 PM  
Anonymous heartland raider fan said...

Calico Jack

How many of those receivers you list as busts(draft picks one thru five) played in a West Coast Offense?
If you cant see the difference then you'll never understand the importance, and impact the WR has in a West Coast Offense.
Calvin Johnson has the potential to be another Kauffman (with size)that could break one at any time from a short, in route or quick slant.
Times have changed, can you?

12:31 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Heartland, don't use Kaufman as evidence for anything. For every big gain he gave us I seem to remember about 20 where he couldn't get a yard, which is exactly what we'd get with Johnson. A handful of decent plays here and there a game if we're lucky.
QB is the primary need regardless of which one we pick.
I'm thinking about our others pick right now, hoping we find replacements for Brayton and Williams on defense. I'm also pleased to see we're in the running for free agent guard Cooper Carlise.. it'd be a nice move since he's familiar with the blocking schemes will be running.

1:36 PM  
Blogger nyraider said...

It's interesting that (WR) Tim Brown dropped to the 6th pick... he had just won the Heisman Trophy. Brownie turned out to be one of the best players ever to wear a Raiders uniform. We should be so lucky again!

1:57 PM  
Anonymous gary said...

Tim Brown is an excellent example of why you DON'T pick a WR very high.

How many seasons did we have a HOF WR (Tim Brown) with a crappy team? He played on horrible teams until we got a decent QB in Gannon.

Gee, what was Gannon again? I believe he played at the QUARTERBACK position.

Plus, ya think that after the headaches that Moss/Porter brought Al last season he wants to mess with another WR?

I'd put the chances of Al drafting Johnson at around 1%... why we are even arguing about this is kinda silly.

2:12 PM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

Heartland Raider - I respect your opinions and fully understand your point about the importance of a WR in a West Coast offense. It might be splitting hairs but we will be running a hybrid West Coast offense as opposed to a pure form West Coast offense. There actually is a big difference. In a hybrid West Coast offense there is an equal importance on using intermediate and longer routes to stretch the field vertically in additon to shorter routes to stretch the field horizontally. In the purest form of a true West Coast offense, the foucs is stretching the field horizaontally.

In an interview this past week, Kiffin alluded to Moss being the 'X' WR who is on the opposite side of the field from the TE. This WR has more room to operate and is used for big plays down the field. He said Porter would the the 'Z' WR who is on the TE side, usually set in motion. This would be for drag & crossing routes and quick hitters for YAC.

It seems that we have a difference of opinion about the following;

(1) The competence of our current WRs. In my view, Porter, Curry, and Gabriel are very well suited for this West Coast hybrid offense. All 3 WRs are versaitle, tough, physical WRs who are good at catching timing routes, in traffic receptions, and fighting for extra yards after the catch. In particular, Curry would seem to be a perfect fit for this sytle of offense.

(2) The need to upgrade our QB position. Sticking with your West Coast hybrid offense, or an offense similar to what USC has run the last 6 years, I believe JRuss is well suited to run this type of offense. No one has questioned his touch and accuracy for short, medium, and long range passes. He is known for having a quick release. He can easily make every throw in the playbook. No one is talking about a "bombs away", vertical offense. Are you implying that we would be better off running this offense with Walter? With Carr? Who exactly do you feel would be the best triggerman for this offense. What is your contingency plan if Carr is signed by Cleveland or Miami? If Moss returns in 2007 would Moss & Johnson be the 2 primary WRs and if so, don't you think Porter and Curry idling on the bench would be a waste of roster spots and talent?

(3) The value and useage of a #1 pick on a QB vs. a WR.

(4) The impact and importance of the QB position vs. the WR position.

(5) Who do you honestly think is more important to running a successful West Coast hybrid offense? A QB or WR?

As far as your comment about "times have changed, can you?" I just have to chuckle. Taking a franchise QB instead of relying on retread vet QBs is a major change from the status quo. It is also a departure from handing over the keys to Walter who hasn't earned the right to be the #1 QB. In the last 29 years we have been going down the same stale path of reclamation QBs and retread QBs. We have been succesful with this path twice; Plunkett and Gannon. Are you content to continue to bypass franchise type QBs and go down the retread QB path? Hey, here's a progressive and novel idea...how about investing in a franchise type QB for our long term future success. How about building a team through the most important position on the field, bar none. Now who exactly is stuck in the past and unwilling to change?

Also, just out of curiousity, why would you think that Walter's skill set is better than JRuss skill set for running a hybrid, west coast offense? Accuracy and touch are the hallmarks of a successful West Coast hybrid QB. Would you honestly be comfortable with Walter as our opening day starter? How would you build our QB depth chart? Until you answeer these questions, your idea to draft CJ seems fairly hollow. I would love to hear your thoughts.

2:26 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bama7
First off I am late in apologizing to Corey for my hip hop bashing. Truth be told I know nothing about it. Sorry.
Heartland, I know you feel as strongly about Johnson as a lot of us do about Russell. That horse is beat to death. As many have said, I think even the strongest Russell supporters have no problem with Walter getting every shot to beat out Russell (if Russell is taken). I just think we're in an extremely vulnearbble position if we go into the season with just Walter or a Walter clone like Carr.
I think QB is a given with the first pick (but who knows with Al)
The QB guru Martizez is raving about Russell and has met with Al and Kiffen privately. Unless this Martinez has said something totally different about Russell in private than what he has said to the press then we're taking Russell. He's absolutely lauding the guy in public. Strongest arm he's seen, nice footwork for a big guy, comes from a well-grounded family that seems to speak toward JeMarc being mature and dedicated etc etc. What more do we want? Will we have to train him up? Absolutely.
On to the other rounds... the more I look at the LB's and DE's available in the 2nd and 3rd round the more I realize we can totally put the final pieces on our defense with THIS DRAFT. This draft is loaded with LB's and DE's in the top 3 rounds. We could turn our defense from good to great with this draft. With Burgesses injury history and no one else proven at DE on the roster, I don't see how we can ignore that inthe draft. And for crying out loud enough already with S. Williams. Grab someone... anyone to fill that spot.
And then you see Garrett Wolfe projected as a 4th or 5th rounder and you think about how well he fits in at RB with Rhodes and Jordan... we're in a great position to make some noise.

5:47 PM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...

Who's this idiot Tom Martinez?

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/archive/2007/04/01/SPGS3OUR0H11.DTL

He obviously hasn't talked to heartland.

The absolute best WRs are going to get between 7 and 10 receptions a game about 10 games a year. They are going to average between 10 and 15 TDs a year. And that's assuming that you have an upper tier QB throwing to him.

An excellent QB is going to run your offense for you on the field. He's going to read the defense, and decide on audibles - changing the play. He's going to average about 30 passes per game, completing about 18 to 24 of them. He's going to be the source of the vast majority of your first downs on 3rd down plays with more than a couple of yards to go. The great ones will average you about 30+ TDs a year.

WRs are mercenaries (the nature of their position), and QBs are the very heart of your offense.

Our WRs are (right now) Moss, Porter, Curry, Gabriel, Buchannon, Morant, Francis, Whitted, Williams, Bookman, and Parson. Our current QBs are Walter and Booty.

Why didn't I see it before, heartland. I feel like such an idiot. Of course we need a WR.

9:03 AM  
Anonymous gary said...

Calico:
>>>>
It is also a departure from handing over the keys to Walter who hasn't earned the right to be the #1 QB.
>>>>

I like that. Walter hasn't earned anything except a bunch of excuses of why he sucked.

Maybe they are legitimate excuses, but they are still just that... excuses. I, for one, don't want to build a team around a buncha excuses and praying they go away. That's what we've been doing for four years.

Hopefully all of the bad decisions that Al has made since we last had a good team will actually turn out for the best in the end... Russell will have a better career than Leinert, Huff will be a pro-bowl safety, Kiffin will be a SB coach for the Raiders, Moss will have a career resurrection, and the Raiders will again be a perenial powerhouse of the NFL.

Thats my story and I'm sticking to it!

9:07 AM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

Interesting article in Pro Football Weekly:

"Overvalued position- Receivers don't make as much difference as teams think they will"
By Don Pierson
March 31, 2007

http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/Commentary/Columns/2007/pierson2128.htm

This line says it all for me ...

"There is a reason no wide receiver ever has won the Associated Press MVP award since its inception 50 years ago, not even Jerry Rice. In the grand scheme of things, wide receivers don’t matter as much as wide receivers think they do."

11:21 AM  
Anonymous gary said...

Calico:
>>>>
This line says it all for me ...
>>>>


Actually this is what did it for me... STAGGERING!!


"The Lions drafted WRs Charles Rogers, Roy Williams and Mike Williams with their No. 1 picks in 2003, 2004, and 2005. They finally hit on one — free agent Mike Furrey, who happened to lead the NFC in receptions with 98. A year ago, he caught zero as a defensive back whom the Rams let go in free agency."

11:19 PM  

Post a Comment

<< Home