Broncos Gamenight Thread
Just three years ago, the Broncos and Raiders were in very similar straits. One team has completely turned itself around, while the other seems to now be in even worse shape. Why have their paths been so divergent, when their opportunities were fairly equal--and in fact the Broncos had to overcome the biggest dead salary cap hit in NFL history.
Something to ponder tonight. GO RAIDERS!
posted by Raider Take at 3:32 PM
24 Comments:
Payton took the Broncos from 5-12 to 8-9 in his first season. Broncos went 10-7 last year and currently lead the league at 7-2. In 2006 Payton took over the 3-13 Saints and went 10-6 in his first year and then won a SB in his 4th year.
That was the path we hoped Pete Carroll would take. But so far that doesn't seem possible. And Carroll is almost 10 years older than Payton, so time is not on his side.
Carroll and Kelly could silence a lot of critics tonight if they can somehow upset the Broncos. I don't think that's possible. They are probably good coaches (certainly Carroll) but, IMO, they lack a pragmatic approach that Payton presumably employed to get the best from his players during down cycles in NO and Denver. Otherwise, how could he possibly turn around those programs so quickly? What did Payton do 2x that Carroll appears to be missing?
That might be the $64k question that Carroll needs to answer. Meanwhile, I recommend he start by sending Patrick Graham back upstairs. Graham clearly made progress when Pierce sent him to the coaches booth.
Tonight we see if the Raiders have made any progress at all.
It's time to compete.... wink!
How long can the Raiders defense hold off the Broncos from pulling away? So many missed opportunities on offense.
That game was so bad by both teams it looked rigged
RT, Thursday Night Football generally sucks both teams are tired and banged up before the game even begins. Sandy
It just goes to show, the mighty Donks, are not that mighty. The KC Swifts will be going to the super bore yet again.
It looked to me like the Broncos were offering charity and the Raiders refused to accept it. Chip Kelly has to be the worst OC in the league. He calls a go-route for his WRs on 3rd and 2 and a QB sneak on 4th and 2... both plays were doomed from the start. He finally breaks out with tosses and screens early in the game, has success running them, then packs them away. When they get near the goal line, they take Brock Bowers off the field (2 plays in a row). Huh?!
Under Chip Kelly, the Raiders offense is anemic. Pete Carroll is smarter than that. How long can he watch Kelly flounder.
Patrick Graham deserves some credit. He had a plan and implemented it. Does Malcom Koonce still play for the Raiders? The guy is a ghost.
If we're calling it like we see it, the Raiders are what they appear to be, a bad team which is poorly coached. It's tough to have patience after watching 22 years of the same thing. I feel gullible even thinking it might be different this time.
from media: "Former Raiders' guard Richie Incognito tweeted during Thursday's game that the offensive playcalling was a "joke." "... and said the coaching staff isn't putting players in positions to succeed."
We can debate how much improvement the roster needs, but it's pretty apparent that the Raiders offense can never truly succeed unless something drastically changes with respect to playcalling. Chip Kelly is Luke Getsy, at a higher pay scale.
Sandy, I get the Thursday night phenomenon, but this was next level. "Each team had 11 penalties. Each team had 10 first downs. Via Bill Smith of NextGenStats, that’s only the second time it has happened since 1950...On Thursday night, both teams also had more penalties than points." It went beyond the starting 11s, the kicking was bad, and the coaches were calling weird plays. The whole game was a pure disaster.
Maybe the Broncos got caught doing what the Raiders used to do when they were a decent team, they played down to the competition.
For me, it's interesting to read who are the biggest critics of the Raiders offense this year, all pointing a finger at playcalling.
Lincoln Kennedy
Robert Newhouse
Richie Incognito
These guys know a thing or two about offense and past Raiders' offenses.
Raiders fire their ST coordinator. Not sure what to make of that. Maybe he deserved it. But ST is certainly not the reason the Raiders suck. IMO, Chip Kelly has had more than enough time to call a game in a way that makes sense... and has at least some in media saying he's starting to turn it around.
Folks will now start to blame the Raiders ineptitude on injuries, but they forget the Raiders offense looked the same before the injuries.
I think we all had big expectations when the Raiders hired Carroll and he brought in Kelly and made him the highest paid coordinator in the league. Who could have guessed Kelly was this bad. He's bringing the whole team down. If Carroll wants to make a difference this year and get the team headed in the right direction, Kelly is the one who should be fired. It's not even close. Waiting until later in the season or the off-season only delays the inevitable, IMO.
Maybe the Raiders should take a look at the Texans backup QB, Davis Mills. What a game he had this week (throwing and running) in a huge 4th qtr comeback. 6'4" and 225 lbs. Houston has CJ Stroud, so Mills could be expendable.
I have a bad feeling that no matter what the Raiders do, it won't be enough. However, with the Jets winning games now and the Raiders playing the Giants head-to-head later in the year, Raiders could be in-line for another high draft slot. Even if they draft a QB, it's likely Geno Smith will remain the starter.
If Spytek and Raiders brass are serious about a rebuild, it will take longer than Carroll's contract to do it right. That makes Carroll a placeholder, at best. The new HC may want to blow up the roster, again. It's an unbreakable cycle with the Raiders. Why should now be different?
If Chip Kelly somehow gets the HC job, all bets are off. We're screwed.
Mills is on a one-year contract! I'm no scout, but if the Raiders want him, getting him should be easy.
Bob Raider
No, its tough not a good season and it didn't go the way we wanted and "We suck"! But we are loyal-, the most in pro sports; And we have a winning history- fans need to stick together. I think it's just a- "run w/ us and wait or you ain't a Raiders' fan"- Order from Raiders and we can run with them or leave(quit) them. This is not anything like our old staff or even old school managing/ staff of teams. Where did they get idea a Brady, not learning to manage, can build a team? I still think it's Tanking! Why did we go along and not say or question them before things hot this bad or before 3-4 games into season? Why didn't they try to build a team?
I am looking forward to seeing this years draft picks get some time. With the season lost they should take a long look at Becht, Rogers, Thorton etc. It was unfortunate JPJ went down he was having an excellent game in terms of run blocking. Sandy
I hate ZBS but JPJ pulled from his guard spot and threw a block for the Raiders lone TD Sunday. It was impressive. Notwithstanding, ZBS around the end zone takes too long to develop. It's not just my opinion. I've read many former Raiders O-linemen discuss this issue.
But more has to change. This isn't just another off-season of draft and free agency and we're all set (haven't we already been fooled by that notion?). Nor is it a "fire the ST coach" issue. Pete Carroll has some hard decisions to make about his own staff. It's hard to imagine Chip Kelly stays. Although, he is reported to be a Tom Brady guy... potentially adding to a new era of Raiders dysfunction.
How did we get so lucky?
Lots of voices out there, e.g., media, fans and players, saying Pete Carroll has already failed his job directive to make the Raiders a better team in 2025 and he will not have enough time to do a full rebuild. Some believe the Raiders brass may cut their losses and go another direction more quickly than anticipated. If that happens, Carroll will have Chip Kelly to thank.
Honestly, what did they expect? They dismantled the defense and failed to extend their best WR before the season started. To Patrick Graham's credit, he's got the replacement defense playing pretty well. Now some of the Raiders defenders are politely pointing fingers at the offense.
Meanwhile, look at what Ben Johnson and Mike Vrabel are doing in Chicago and NE, respectively. These guys were reportedly on the Raiders radar before Carroll. Media went as far as to call Johnson the Raiders new HC.
With Pete Carroll almost certain to "age-out" before he can fulfill his job directive, will the Raiders do another rapid firing, or do they keep a regime that can't finish what they start before Carroll's contract expires? Either way, they probably can't avoid the start a new era of dysfunction under Tom Brady.
I want to "chime in" here. I think what has been missing from the Raiders since Al's passing, and probably a little before, is accountability. Al had Amy Trask and a few others to try and help him remain grounded. At the same time, once Al made up his mind about something, there was no changing it.
Mark has not really had that, nor has he held the GM, Brady, Gruden, Hue Jackson, McDaniel/Ziegler, and a host of others to it. His issue is he is too trusting and leaves people to do their job, and expects them to do it right, but without accountability. What happens is people take advantage of this. Really, IMO, the only one who did their job well was Reggie McKenzie, and currently Sandra Douglas Morgan has turned the front office around. Reggie had a vision for the team, and was holding those he hired accountable to that vision, until Mark trumped it with a chance to hire Gruden.
The other factor, is Mark seems more interested in the WNBA. Look at the Colts. Carlie Irsay-Gordon is the owner who took over the team when her dad died. She has made similar statements that Mark has made, "I don't know anything about football." But look at her approach to this lack of knowledge. She is on the sideline, wearing headphones, listening to the coaches talk, game plan, what went wrong, etc, in real time during the game. She is learning the game, asking questions, getting results because of accountability. Mark is content with his lack of knowledge and accountability, and it shows. He is seeking a "magic formula" to make it work; and it doesn't exist without effort to understand what you don't know and accountability.
Mark needs to take a lesson from Carlie, make efforts to understand what he doesn't know, ask questions, and hold people accountable. Until that happens, things will not change.
Good points, Nate. I believe you have to take stock in what you do for work or life, no matter what that is. This started out as Al's fault because he didn't prepare Mark to take over. But Mark shows the same disconnect that he started with. He shoots from the hip far too much. His approach lacks due diligence. Now he probably has too many cooks (excuse the expression) pissing in his ear during recent hires, and those voices (good or bad) are likely to guide the Raiders for the next decade at least.
Nobody hires and fires a GM in one season. That's ridiculous. Mark is getting exactly what he deserves... which is truly unfortunate for us.
I feel like Mark puts the same effort into the Aces, but my understanding was the Acres were positioned for success when he took over... and not of his making.
Bob Raider
To Nate- no, ACES are winning so it's his right and good thing to lay attention to them. But why aren't Raiders winning? We've heard about MD but he seems to let others run team. It's them who are responsible. It's mature GM time in LV maybe we not Raiders are the wrong side! Maybe old school leader leads instead of a room of guys. IDK Colts owner, sidelines and talking? But others still make decisions and MD claims to be involved and he's been doing it longer than Colts owner. No, they need to do money spending, big gambles and some trades- trades and moves. Conservative, slow and get coachable guys and young guys and coach then into a winner is on but slow. Maybe old school guys to come and help- maybe make deals/ moves to build star expensive rosters. And I now doubt MD wanted Brady running team, it's others idea. The ideas from others is the problem
Nate, I agree with much of what you say, except that Mark Davis "lets people do their job". He hires and fires people so quickly, everyone's heads are spinning all the time. Already talk that Pete Carroll will be one and done, maybe Spytek too.
I don't think there is a man alive that can fix the Raider mess in one year.
Raiders could have Christian Gonzalez & Joey Porter Jr as their corners, but past on both of them in their respective drafts. Maybe if they had some continuity, they would show better results.
The Mark Davis approach has been hit or miss, and the results speak for themselves. The process lacks due diligence and intelligent thinking. I was concerned about Davis hiring Pete Carroll but never thought it would be this bad. He might not survive (his job) into next year, and that's probably the right call. We need a regime that can grow with the organization, not one that will be lame duck after 2026 with little to no chance of renewal. Spytek hasn't done much either, but if he's fired that would be another colossal mistake. The Raiders are rudderless as long as Mark Davis is making decisions.
Ghost,
MD, for the majority part, lets people he hires do their job, unless the job they do is poor, in which he then fires them. The only exception has been Reggie and Gruden. But this fits the narrative that he is looking for a magic formula to win at football.
Bob, the Aces are winning because Mark is around the team more than he is with the Raiders. His attention to the team was there before they were winning. He is not around the Raiders much, in fact, only 3 or 4 games a year. He, in his words, knows what he knows.
Whereas, Carlie Irsay-Gordon has learned the playbook of the Colts to hold players and coaches accountable. She is always asking questions to gain a better understanding of football so she can run her team as an informed owner who can build a champion. My whole point is, Mark needs to be talking to her. Then and only then will the Raiders change.
IDK the inner workings of the Aces but they were already a good team before Mark Davis bought them. And what are we actually talking about here? The Aces were a $2.0M franchise when Davis purchased them, whereas the Raiders are a $5-7B franchise. Is it being suggested Davis puts more effort into winning basketball games and that's a problem for the Raiders?
Personally, I wouldn't want Mark Davis around the Raiders more. Davis asking questions about football would only exacerbate the Raiders failures, IMO. Davis is the George Costanza of the NFL. If he did the opposite of what he thinks is right, the Raiders would be better off. Maybe we are seeing firsthand what Al saw in Mark and why he didn't put more time and resources into grooming Mark for the eventuality of ownership.
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