Monday, August 17, 2009

The Cable Incident

I was initially amused by the reports of the Raiders players rallying around Tom Cable, chanting rather creatively "Cable Bumaye!" in support of their coach after it was reported that Cable had been in an altercation with an assistant.

I liked the fact that the players were circling the wagons and exuding a sense of spontaneous team unity. I created a shirt commemorating their chant.

However, my friend Calico Jack has opened my eyes to a different perspective on the matter, as detailed in the following comments. I don't want to contribute to anything that is perceived as condoning off-field violence or mocking a victim of it. That was not my intention. Therefore, I have removed the shirt.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Hopefully, it was just a brief skirmish in the heat of the moment, one that can serve as a positive rallying point for the team. The concern is that it was a detrimental lapse in professional judgement, and that there is a mean-spirited undercurrent running through the situation.

I'll wait for more details to emerge before having a true take on the situation.

393 Comments:

Blogger Steve said...

Hell yea. You hear Cable punched our Randy Hanson! At first I was like what the hell! Than I remembered Hanson had same problems with Kiffin. Im guessing Hanson is a all around asshole! lol. But he must be a good coach if hes still there!

Go Cable! Bring that attitude to ur players!!!

Go Raiders!!!

8:03 PM  
Blogger Raider Take said...

Well, I certainly don't condone physical violence.

However, I do like the fact that the Raiders players rallied around their coach, and that they had a little fun with it, too.

That's the point of this shirt: to celebrate the organic unity and team-first attitude that seems to be taking shape under Cable.

Now he and his players need to Bumaye the Chiefs, Chargers and Broncos. I can't wait!

8:10 PM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

It is funny and sad at the same time.

It is funny on a school yard level that "Ka Pow!" Cable was so angered by Hanson that he literally shut his trap up.

On the other hand, if this incident is true, this was a selfish, cowardly, dispicable act unbecoming of the leader of our team.

Spin it any way you want but the bottom line is that this is the type of distraction that a Head Coach is responsible from eliminating not instigating.

The team comes first. Cable has put himself in jeopardy of being in Goodell's doghouse for 2 games suspended.

Whatever Hanson did or said to anger Cable SHOULD have been handled in a professional way ...
this only feeds the media hyenas fresh blood rare meat which is an unfortuate by-product.

I guess it was wishful thinking on my part to think the circus had left.

8:19 PM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

RT:

I wish I could just laugh off this incident. Most importantly, I hope this incident isn't a detrimental distraction. It could cause serious ramifications on Cable. The guy already has so much on his plate. The last thing I want him to be dealing with are Nancy Gay, Mike Florio, Mike Silver, etc. I hope this "story" doesn't have legs and dies quickly. I have my doubts since the pack of jackalls smell a fresh carcus.

I like that the players have kept their sense of humor and are rallying behind Cable. Hanson must be a complete prick. Nevertheless, it sends the wrong message to the 53 men he is leading. "Do as I say not as I do" how about that for a Raiders T-Shirt? Just kidding.

8:24 PM  
Blogger Raider Take said...

Well...Now that you put it that way!

If the shirt is seen more as condoning this incident than a statement about the team rallying around the coach in a positive sense, then I will shut it down.

Thoughts?

8:30 PM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

8:54 PM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

I like Cable. He is a guy who obviously bleeds silver and black. He is committed to the team and passionate about his profession.

For the life of me I'm trying to wrap my brain around any possible excuse for this act but it would be nothing more than an excuse.

Ask yourself these questions in reference to the T-Shirt;

Would you be proud to wear it?

How would you explain the t-shirt to a nephew, son, mother and feel good about it?

"You see Junior, the Head Coach got mad at the assistant coach so he slugged him in the jaw."

I'm not trying to come across as righteous. Everyone, including Head Coaches, makes mistakes.

However, I sincerely believe that a leader of men needs to be held to the highest possible standards.

9:08 PM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

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9:20 PM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

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9:32 PM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

I guess we should wait to get the facts before we jump to any hasty conclusions.

ESPN, which in a suprise twist, backs Cable's denials of sucker punching Hanson.

ProFootballTalk references Mark Schlaereth and Adam Schefter on Cable's denials.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/08/17/espn-backs-cables-denial-of-sucker-punch/

I must admit, in todays 24/7/365 "news" cycle, everyone including myself, is a little too quick on the trigger.

I would love for the real facts to paint a different picture than the one Nancy Gay posted.

I will tell you this though ...

If Gay was factually incorrect about her post AND her "sources" are proved uncredible, heaven help her.

I don't think I'd have to twist the arm of our good friend RT to pull a 'News You Can't Use' out of the mothballs.

If Cable wasn't involved in the sucker punching of Hanson, I personally will lambast Gay to no end for irresponsible, damaging, unprofessional, and cowardly journalism.

This would be the type of BS story that should face the full power of the Raider Nation wrath upon this bitch.

9:35 PM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

9:58 PM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

To set the record straight ...

I was definitely too hasty in making assumptions and judgments about Cable's "guilt" based on the reports from AOL Fanhouse and other sites. At this point in time, there seems to be conflicting reports.

As most of you know, I have the highest regard for Tom Cable. From him joining the team in 2007 and turning our OLine around, to how he handled the difficult circumstances as interim HD, to how this off season has gone. He has shown that he has the right stuff.

If it turns out Cable didn't sucker punch Hanson, I will be relieved, happy, and more than willing to take back my initial snap judgments on the incident.

If it turns out that Cable did sucker punch Hanson, then I stand behind my original premise which is that a HC needs to conduct himself beyond reproach.

With the facts still up in the air, I learned a valuable lesson today. No matter how many reports you see from "credible" mainstream journalists/sites, allow for at least 24 hours to pass for more information to come out.

10:02 PM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

According to ESPN ...

"But Cable told ESPN's Mark Schlereth later Monday that no punches were thrown.

That's backed up by what a former NFL scout Daniel Jeremiah told ESPN's Chris Mortensen. Jeremiah's "reliable source" said that Hanson broke a facial bone when his cheek hit a cabinet in a team meeting room when Cable flipped him out of his chair.

Jeremiah also wrote on his Twitter page that Cable reacted when Hanson spoke profanely to defensive coordinator John Marshall. He rebuked Hanson, then pushed his chair, which caused the injury."

Cable backing DC Marshall, putting Hanson in his place, and a bizarre accident (flipped out of a chair and hitting a cabinet!)... ok, this could be something that would be much easier to digest and rally behind.

New T-Shirt Ideas #1:

"I hate getting flipped from a chair and hittin a cabinet but I guess I deserved it!"

10:29 PM  
Blogger ButteryPat said...

Yeah, that Cable denied it isn't surprising itself, since an admission could leave him open for discipline, but ESPN backing him up seems to support his story more, since they obviously have no interest in whether or not he gets in trouble.

Keeping in mind that the largest purveyor of sports news has apparently backed off the story, I'd imagine this thing will die quickly.

As far as this being a case of "do as I say not as I do", if he did in fact do it, there's a bit of truth to that. A head coach should act professionally and cool under fire. However, it doesn't exactly go against what he's said. Remember that he's defended fights between players and said stuff about brothers sometimes needing to fight it out.

Other than that, I can't wait for some Niner heads to start rolling tomorrow!

10:45 PM  
Blogger ButteryPat said...

Yeah, Calico, I guess "Cable, accidentally cause injury" doesn't make for quite as good a chant. :)

Glad to hear what is hopefully the final word. Interestingly, I remember a rumor like this when I went to high school. One of my teachers got frustrated with a student, and shooed him out of his office, slamming the door so hard the glass broke. The story circulated and soon it became the teacher punching the glass. Then it became him punching the student INTO the glass. So these things happen.

10:55 PM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

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12:17 AM  
Blogger nyraider said...

Something went down, but nobody is talking. Hanson didn’t press charges, and I’ve read/heard nothing that he’s been fired.

According to at least one media report, Hanson could still benefit Davis in his action against Kiffin.

Raiders are obviously in damage control, but how bad is it? There may be legal ramifications as well as NFL discipline issues at risk.

It’s pretty clear Hanson was retained last year to spite Kiffin. If he is retained now, one can assume it is protect Cable from prosecution.

4:32 AM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

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4:40 AM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

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4:43 AM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

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4:44 AM  
Blogger nyraider said...

Pats complete trade w/Broncos and acquire a 5th rd pick, which they will give to the Raiders to complete the Burgess deal.

No surprise here since the Pats alternative was to give the Raiders their 4th rd pick.

5:42 AM  
Blogger H said...

Ok, having some experience in this area (when you are as old as me your have multiple life experiences to draw from), here are my thoughts.

According to BSPN, so you may have to get a box of rock salt to get enough grains that are large enough to take, Hanson was not punched. Plus it was a reliable source of former NFL Scout Daniel Jeremiah as reported to Chris Mortensen. Jeremiah states:

“Cable reacted when Hanson spoke profanely to defensive coordinator John Marshall. He rebuked Hanson, then pushed his chair, which caused the injury.” If that be the case, Big Fat Harry Deal (Just who is Harry Deal and is he really that fat). The report also stated “Hanson broke a facial bone when his cheek hit a cabinet in a team meeting room when Cable flipped him out of his chair.”

If it is as reported above I don’t see Cable needing to attend anger management classes. It was evidently not the first time for Hanson, and he may have finally stepped on Cable’s last nerve. Plus, Cable was saying “you don’t speak to your boss (John Marshall) that way (at least not in the open).” So he took matters in his own hands, pun intended.

It evidently didn’t have any effect on the players; they seemed to play their collective asses off on Friday.

I do see a financial settlement in Hanson’s future, and while I do not condone violence for the sake of violence, sometimes people just deserve to get their butt kicked. Additionally, from what I have read, the police report says Hanson was “assaulted”. Most folks think “punch” when they hear the word “assaulted” and this is not always the case. AOL Fanhouse (Nancy Gay) seems to be quoting Hanson as saying he was punched and didn’t see it coming, which is suspect if the police are saying Hanson won’t say anything.

Cable may have just been trying to get the guy to stand up and used a bit too much force. There are just too many scenarios that could fit the few facts available.

Now, I’m kind of late to the party on this one, I was busy putting five gallons of porter in bottles last night ( Calico, they’ll be ready in 2-3 weeks). So, this is all new to me and there are conflicting reports, but to BSPN’s credit they actually put a name to their source, albeit a second hand source.

I would offer this one last observation. We know Nancy Gay and Tim Kawakami’s affinity for all things Raiders. After last season where Chris Mortensen was caught publishing innuendo without backup or verification I would think he would want to be very careful

The only place where I would interject a personal feeling is I do not for a single minute believe Cable would commit a “cowardly” act, nor do I think he would sucker punch anyone. He’s too much of a man for that. I’ve been sucker punched before; I know the kind of people who do that.

I’ve also backed an asshole who was smaller than me (reports are making a big deal about the difference in size) into a corner at a place where I was doing some work. He was smaller, but he was also half my age. He stepped on my last nerve and two guys got to me and intervened before blows were exchanged. He called the police on me. In this case the police basically told him to grow up.

H

6:53 AM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

7:14 AM  
Anonymous Raided Nate 75 said...

I bet it was Herrera that sucker punched him, because Hanson didn't see the warning sign that Tim Kawakwami saw last year, and that was Herrera hiking up his pants.
I hope there is an overhead/transparency illustration about the incident that Al Davis shares with the media soon. :D

7:27 AM  
Blogger H said...

You may be on to something Nate.

Here’s my favorite headline from SI.com, “New coach, new scandal, same old dysfunction with the Raiders.” I didn’t even bother to click on the link.

Hey, Sports Illustrated, news flash – a fight between two coaches is not a SCANDAL. An incident, yes, scandal no. A scandal would be coach one punching coach two because coach two was sleeping with coach one’s wife/girlfriend. The media is now out there trying to outdo each other and for once the voice of reason is BSPN. Go figure.

If Hanson won’t press charges, the police do nothing. The Raiders say they are handling it internally, let it happen media. Freedom of the Press doesn’t “require” people to tell you everything or anything for that matter.

Here’s the way I see it playing out, the NFL will hand out the same punishment to Cable as they did to Belicheat for cheating.

The one thing of note, is one player, can’t remember which one and can’t find the article, said they haven’t missed Hanson at practice who evidently hasn’t been out on the field since the incident occurred. He was an assistant to an assistant, so I’m not sure why he would even be mouthing off (my interpretation) to Marshall in the first place.

H

8:16 AM  
Blogger H said...

Calico,

"I like Cable. He is a guy who obviously bleeds silver and black. He is committed to the team and passionate about his profession."

Totally agree with the sentiment. But, the strange thing is an article I read said Hanson "bleeds Silver and Black."

How this all plays out will be interesting. Especially with the Singletary's in town for a couple of days.

H

9:46 AM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

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10:27 AM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

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11:28 AM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...

I don't really care about the Hanson story. It seems like it's just something for the media to talk about because there's been so little controversy coming from camp.

When Hanson spouted off last season, and was subsequently suspended, I was on Hanson's side. Hanson had complained that Kiffin failed to prepare his team. There was no question that Hanson was right. Cable got the team better prepared for their pre-season opener than Kiffin did for his season opener.

Next is that fact that the only suggestion there was a fist thrown came from the hospital which was required to notify the police if anyone seeks treatment for an injury that looks like it might have occured from an assault.

Next there was a report that no fists were thrown. There was simply a disagreement, and Cable kicked Hanson's chair while he was leaning it back on two legs. This caused Hanson to lose his balance, fall, and hit his chin on the table on the way down.

While Cable certainly looks like the kind of guy you wouldn't want to meet in a dark alley, so was John Madden. Cable never impressed me as the kind of guy who would go with the fists over a disagreement.

I strongly suspect the latter is the one that happened. As to why Cable hasn't denied it? That's part of the "cone of silence" theory. Never confirm or deny. And the Raiders have been operating under the cone of silence since Kiffin left.

11:28 AM  
Blogger H said...

Ok, it was Nnamdi who said they hadn't missed Hanson. He went on to say:

"We've still got Lionel (Washington) and Willie Brown and they've been able to just take over from where Randy was," Asomugha said. "Randy was just an assistant to Lionel anyway."

I don't think Nnamdi was trying to slight Hanson. I believe he was just saying they have enough coaches to take up the slack.

Also, there is a rumor The Chaz is getting X-rayed, anyone hear anything. I can't find an article.

H

11:40 AM  
Blogger H said...

Welcome Back Blanda.

H

11:45 AM  
Blogger H said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

11:45 AM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...

Thanks, H.

Calico and RT, I appreciate your concerns, but a t-shirt, no matter what's on it, can have any meaning you want to attach to it.

How about this (and I'm hanging it on the notion that we don't know what happened, but the team's response was unity) -

On the front of a t-shirt it should say RAIDERS, Bumaye! On the back it should say "Wanted - 53 men dedicated to a single purpose."

I would explain that t-shirt to a child as a symbol of Raider team unity - with the team memebers chanting support of Cable after being attacked by a rumor.

12:03 PM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

12:04 PM  
Blogger H said...

Panty,

Could be. Nothing on the news wires. It was a post by a commentor on another site.

Sorry Take, I've been cheating on you.

H

12:11 PM  
Blogger H said...

Ok, Louis Murphy has what is initially described as a sore hip. Maybe the other guy was confused.

Whoever it is I hope they heal quickly.

H

12:23 PM  
Blogger H said...

Never mind, Schilens has a broken bone in his foot. Just showd up on Raider News.

H

12:25 PM  
Blogger H said...

So, let's hope the good news on Walker is for real. No word on how long Schilens will be out.

H

12:28 PM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

12:42 PM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...

The news about Schilens really sucks.

On the up side, many bones in the foot heal very quickly. On the down side, some never heal.

1:27 PM  
Blogger ButteryPat said...

Hey, Blanda the Manda, back in business. Hope today finds you well, compadre.

The news about Schilens sucks big time. About as unpleasant as news can get. I hate to sound too smug, since I've been wrong plenty of times lately, but aren't you glad we didn't cut Javon now? :)

In other news, The Wheel Of Favre keeps on a-turnin'. This is getting real sad. He's like Rocky in Rocky IV, the guy just doesn't know when to say no. I guess now he's just on a one-man crusade against Ted Thompson, who, if you recall, he publicly criticized Javon Walker for criticizing. Hey, do we have the Vikes this year? Our DB's could use the extra picks.

2:13 PM  
Blogger H said...

Good news is they are not saying "stress fracture". The fifth metatarsul attaches to the little toe according to my research. If it's an avulsion fractrue it says 4-6 weeks in a boot or walking cast.

Since he said he was just running a pass pattern and no contact, this sounds about right. But, hey, I'm not a doctor but I play one on the internet.

Stress fracture requires surgery and takes much longer to heal. We will see. He could be back by game 3.


H

2:52 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

sometimes a guy gets complacent and a little too comfortable in his position with a team, thinking he can't be messed with. last season Hanson was critical of his boss, little lanie, and kiffin got pissed (as would I btw) and tried to fire him, but got overuled by the real BOSS, so he suspended him. now i believe that Hanson has once again stepped across that line by speaking profanley and disrespectfully to coach Marshall.

now i don't condone violence either but sometimes we can't just bring it to the authorities, most of these things need to be dealt with on the spot. if you disrespect me or someone i respect alot i WILL confront you with it. ecspecially if i am the boss. it's a "bitchslap" if you will. put you in your place. makes it kind of tough for the real BOSS to overule you too. gets done what needs to be done. coach hanson now KNOWS his place. i'll bet he's not as quick to cuss at coach Marshall either.
it's football, emotions run high and the demand for respect is at a premium.

so whether he kicked the chair, slapped him silly or shut his piehole for him is irrelevent in my opinion. Coach Cable got done what needed to be done. he now has the attention of the entire team, the few that weren't buying in thinkin the buck stops at Al Davis's desk are rethinking that opinion right now. there is a heirarchy of power and his, is real damn high.

as to this being a bad thing to happen to us while trying to instill disipline and self-control into our players....there is not a manager in all of baseball i respect more than Lou Pinnella and i've seen that man attack players who disrespected him. coaches, media members and players alike are reponsible for their words and actions. period. if your gonna call yourself a man then stand behind what you say or do. thats the kind of man i respect and will go to battle and fight to the death for.

so even if Cable did punch him, not that i condone violence, i say who better to lead us, who better would you like to follow?

frkyraider

3:36 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

i hope it was like this:

hanson kickin back with his feet on the table: "so they were running it straight down your throat old man, looks the same lame ass robby ryans defense!! piss fuckin poor!!!"

thats when Coach Cable slaps the feet of the punk and spills him over backwards. hanson scrambles to his feet saying "wtf wtf wtf, i ought to freakin clock you"

Coach Cable stepping to one inch away from his tiny trembling face: steals a line from Micheal Madsen in Reservoir Dogs, "you gonna bark all day little doggie, or are ya gonna bite?"

frkyraider

3:50 PM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

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5:16 PM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

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6:01 PM  
Blogger nyraider said...

J-Mac wasn't very flattering toward the Raiders as it appears the 49ers got the best of the Raiders during Tues morning's combined session.

Here's the link:
http://tinyurl.com/kumd86

J-Mac highlights:
-Gore flattens Brown (bests Morrison)
-49er D gets upper hand against Raiders O
-Raiders passing struggles w/o Schilens, who will undergo a tough rehab.
-Schilens (like Barnes) will have to remain on the 53-man roster or be put for the season.

I thought PUP was an option.

7:35 PM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

The Schilens foot injury is a major bummer. He was truly on the cusp of become a star WR.

I watched the game vs. the Cowgirls twice. The 2nd viewing I paid particular attention to Schilens. The guy was making every type of catch on a wide variety of routes.

I am hopeful that he will be eased back on to the playing field by game 3 vs. the Donkeys which would be about 6.5 weeks from the date of injury.

Now we really need Murphy and DHB to step their game up another few notches AND get Walker ready for week 1.

Before training camp started I was genuinely worried about our WR corps. Now that camp is in full swing, I feel much better about our depth to cover Schilen's abscence.

The wild card to the equation, IMO, is little Nick Miller. There is something about the guy that just says "winner". As a slot WR, legit deep threat, and good ability for YAC, he brings plenty to the table.

How this team handles adversity, setbacks, and rallies around each other will be an important element to the 2009 season.

7:47 PM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

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5:01 AM  
Blogger H said...

FrkyRaider,

My favorite line for this “You gonna do something or just stand there and bleed.” Kurt Russell to Billy Bob Thornton in Tombstone.

Panty,

If Hanson stood there and went toe to toe like a man, then where is the “sucker punch” misinformation coming from? Did Nancy Gay make it up out of thin air? If that be the case her credibility went from zero to negative numbers. Personally I think the chair flipping account is the most plausible since it provides the most detail of the incident.

Now, according to BSPN, Cable has flat out denied hitting Hanson. If that’s the case there is no wiggle room. Either he didn’t hit the guy or he’s lying. He doesn’t strike me as a guy who would lie about it and I would be major league disappointed if he was, even to BSPN. And, even if he had a valid reason for lying to them, it would be better for all if he had just kept the Cone of Silence in place. This is not a possible sarcastic remark about “Al’s defense”, this could have legal and league ramifications.

That’s way too serious, so here’s a article that puts it all into proper perspective. The opening paragraph pretty much says it all, but the whole thing is well worth the read.

http://tinyurl.com/n99a3d

Calico,

We’ll know more today, but from the description of the injury it looks promising for week three. We’ll probably get the official word sometime today.

H

5:19 AM  
Blogger H said...

Panty,

I'm more interested in what they do under game conditions on Saturday as opposed to a controlled scrimmage.

I remember back in the day (there I go again) in a controlled scrimmage against the Cowgirls Don Mosebar's career was ended when someone poked him in the eye in a pile up.

He never regained proper vision i the eye and had to retire.


I wanted him to play with an eye patch, but a center needs both eyes.

H

5:25 AM  
Blogger H said...

Ok guys, my bad. Well not my bad but somebody's bad.

That link now takes you to a login screen. The first time I used it, it went straight to the article.

If it shows up again I'll get it to you. It was riddled with good satire and sarcasm about all the conflicting reports from sources who werent' there. But the best part is it talks about the coming showdown betweek Goodell and Davis over the incident.

H

5:34 AM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

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7:15 AM  
Anonymous Arkansan Raider said...

We don't talk about conspiracies here. Especially about folks who won't produce a birth certificate.

---Jeff

9:36 AM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

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9:42 AM  
Anonymous Arkansan Raider said...

Funny, PR, but we could say the same about your GWB derangement syndrome.

Hypocrisy! PantyRaider's got it!!!

That is all.

---Jeff

9:57 AM  
Blogger H said...

Panty, I knew what you were saying, I was taking a jab at Nancy Gay, plus I’m the last person to believe in conspiracies. But many folks, including some in the media, have been seeing black helicopters since before there were black helicopters. I think there’s a conspiracy in the media to drum up conspiracies then let people run with their innuendo.

News flash, Oswald acted alone, Roosevelt didn’t know about Pearl Harbor, the moon landing was real and Bush didn’t plan 9/11.

The last thing they should do is get together and come up with a story for any reason. History shows the problem with cover-ups is you have to kill too many people to make it work. Nixon was guilty, Clinton did have sex with that woman and Belichick did cheat. Which brings me to this.

Man the media drives me crazy. Raiders Beat is reporting the following:

“Hanson being hospitalized is a documented fact.” Wrong! To be “hospitalized”, you have to be admitted as an inpatient. Being admitted to the emergency room for x-rays and treatment is NOT being hospitalized. Know your language people.

They further said, “Suppressing the news makes media only more curious to uncover the details and keeps alive the story for much longer than is warranted.” Once more, the first amendment doesn’t REQUIRE anyone to tell the MEDIA a DAMN thing. Get over yourself.

There are potential legal, civil and league ramifications that could require him to testify under oath or at least be deposed under oath. Anything said publicly would be brought to bear during such testimony.

In fact he shouldn’t have said anything to BSPN even if the guy was a college teammate. Once again, Raiders Beat, get over yourself.

To paraphrase Admiral David Farragut at the Battle of Mobile Bay, “Damn the media, full speed ahead.” (A little Civil War reference for Blanda).

Others in the Media are now demanding Cable name McFadden as the starter NOW. Ok, how about you do your jobs and report and let Cable do his job and coach. Otherwise put the word “Pontificator” beside your byline. Naming who starts where is not the purpose of camp at this time. That will come later, again, get over yourself.

Now to our wide receivers. I looked at the Suckaneer game again last night. I paid particular attention to the WR’s. On Bush’s long TD run I ran it in slow motion during the end zone shot. Aside from the near perfect teamwork by the OL, Higgins came across and perfectly sealed off the strong safety. Meanwhile, Schilens busted his butt to get downfield and provide a convoy for Bush. He didn’t get to make the downfield block, but he didn’t let up until Bush was down and in the end zone. We many times overlook their contribution in the running game, so kudos to whoever is working with them on their downfield blocking. It’s hard to coach that kind of hustle.

The current situation with Schilens is exactly why Walker was on the PUP list. He can now be activated without losing a roster spot. Nick Miller can continue to fight for a roster spot and Louis Murphy can still get more reps.

I’m not saying the injury is a good thing. Schilens was going lights out as I expected, but keeping Walker on the PUP instead of releasing him outright turns out to be the right decision. Now what we need is a return to form for Walker which will give The Chaz time to heal and return to top form without rushing it. This will also see Zach Miller get a few more catches, which is not a bad thing.

Man, that’s a lot of pontification even for me. I’m tired now, I think I’ll go home.

H

10:16 AM  
Blogger ButteryPat said...

Alright, I think I deserve some brownie points for not saying anything up till now, but this has popped up before, and I think it's important I set the record straight. Hopefully you guys understand.

This whole Barack Obama birth certificate thing is pure bunk. Independent, non-partisan organizations like Snopes and Factcheck.org have seen, handled and authenticated his original birth certificate. I think CNN and even a couple right-wing organizations, if I remember correctly, possibly Newsbusters or one of the old-guard conservative papers such as the National Review, I'm not sure off the top of my head. I know they posted his birth certificate pneumonia his campaign site, and I believe it's now viewable on the White House site.

Unfortunately I only have my Wii for internet right now, so I'm unable to provide links for you, but just comb through the subject a little bit and you'll find what I'm talking about. It's a done deal. There are many real differences to be had with the policies and ideas of Barack Obama, and even as a supporter of his, I don't approve of a lot of what he's doing, but the man is the legitimately elected, Christian, American-born President of the United States. Just think about it, if there was any real chance he wasn't born in the States, and thus ineligible for the Presidency, wouldn't the Republicans or even Hillary Clinton have jumped all over that when they were getting their respective asses kicked in the polls?

So I hope that doesn't derail things too much. Arkansas, know that it's nothing personal. I think you seem like a really cool guy. But I remember that topic being brought up before, and this time I didn't want to stay silent.

Other than that, I don't think it's a difficult decision to keep Chaz on the roster. He deserves a spot, and he should be available fairly soon in the season. Hopefully that rhythm he was developing doesn't subside.

10:49 AM  
Blogger ButteryPat said...

pneumonia? Dammit, stupid Wii! :)

10:54 AM  
Anonymous Arkansan Raider said...

At the risk of a ConspiraFlaWa, your post is not entirely accurate, ButteryPat.

They posted a short-form "Certificate Of Live Birth," which is NOT the same thing as a long form Birth Certificate.

At the time of B.O.'s birth, Hawaii allowed for people who were not born in-state to be covered by their COLB. Notice that we still don't know at which hospital he was born, among other vital info.

Snopes and Factchek are most certainly *not* independent non-partisan sites. They are both heavily biased to the Left.

Keeping B.O.'s Chicago attack machine in mind, do you really think that the other presidential contenders needed that mess in their campaigns? They've done a thorough job of painting "birthers" to look like k00ks, and who wants even the hint of that when running for president?

Of course, it's in the courts now. I guess we'll see, huh?

BTW, thanks PantyRaider for your GWB comment. You can't help yourself, can you? It leaves us in a quandary: ignore it, and give it legitimacy and the invitation to do it some more. Answer it and get accused of starting a PoFlaWa when the answerer didn't start it--YOU did.

---Jeff

11:40 AM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...

Jeff, Obama IS a natural born citizen of the United States. We had an election, your guy lost, get over it.

Thanks for the Civil War reference, H.

Regarding Cable/Hanson, I find it interesting. Nobody has ever said that Cable hit Hanson. The hospital believed there was evidence that someone did hit Hanson. The hospital, with that evidence, is required to contact the police of a possible assault. The police came and were uninterested unless someone is going to press charges on someone. No one is pressing charges. Everyone who was apparently involved has said, "Nothing happened."

And that, my friends, is all of the information that is out there. Everything else is pure speculation.

Seems like kind of a non-story to me.

12:22 PM  
Blogger Raider Take said...

"We had an election, your guy lost, get over it."

Funny, folks tried to tell Al Gore's supporters that for years.

Couldn't resist. ;)

12:26 PM  
Anonymous Arkansan Raider said...

True, dat. And they *still* haven't gotten over it. To. This. Day.

I still remember the bumper stickers. Instead of "Gore/Lieberman," it was:

"Sore Loserman."

And we don't know that Obama is a natural-born citizen until we see the actual documents. You're making a statement of faith.

---Jeff

12:37 PM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...

Guys, going into politics again is bad enough. Going into stupid politics is even worse. Let's stick with the Raiders.

H, back in the day when we had serious problems, we had serious thinkers. I don't think we're going to find those people anymore.

2:02 PM  
Blogger H said...

Blanda,

By the way, they discovered an old ironclad in Mobile Bay a few years back, don't know if they ever raised it.

Also, Nancy Gay was reporting it as a sucker punch tha Hanson never saw coming.

BSPN reports it was a chair flip cabinet/head collision after arguments.

Doesn't sound like it is some sort of combination where wittnesses were confused.

H

2:14 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

OK, I can't resist jumping into the fray. All you need to know about the birth certificate issue is Ann Coulter thinks these birthers are crazy. But hey there are still plenty of crazy people who think W masterminded 9/11 so there will always be crazies who think Obama was not born here.

Roy

3:07 PM  
Anonymous Arkansan Raider said...

Crazy, huh?

Whatever, Roy. Namecalling certainly adds to the discussion.

---Jeff

3:10 PM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...

H, I remember that. Wasn't the the CSS Virginia (Merrimac)? The one that fought the Monitor in the first ever battle between ironclads. Or was it the Monitor that they found?

3:16 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jeff,
OK, name calling does nothing to further the convo, but check this out.
http://factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html

This is not a live birth this is the original birth certificate. It hurts the cause to be spouting nonsense about the President not being born here. It also goes against all common sense, like most conspiracy theories.

Roy

3:38 PM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

4:03 PM  
Anonymous Arkansan Raider said...

Roy, roger that.

Problem is this: at the time, you could get a short-form COLB without having been born in HI. The document they've produced is a short form, not a long form.

From your cite:
"The document is a "certification of birth," also known as a short-form birth certificate. The long form is drawn up by the hospital and includes additional information such as birth weight and parents' hometowns. The short form is printed by the state and draws from a database with fewer details."

Now do you see the problem?

---Jeff

4:29 PM  
Anonymous Arkansan Raider said...

PR, thanks for the explanation.

However, you know as well as I do that any reference as ambiguous as that--given your history--is going to leave a bad impression.

Let's not do any more of this, mmmkay?

---Jeff

4:32 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

damn, am i on the right website? hmmm....i better re-read.

frkyraider

5:58 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jeff,
What about the birth announcement. They did this from out of the country in the hopes that one day he was going to sneak his way to the presidency? Come on man, conspiracy theories are fun but they are just mental masturbation.
Roy

6:06 PM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

Nothing like visiting a Raiders blog and debating the legitimacy of a Obama's birth certificate.

Chair flip vs. sucker punch ... ok. Short form vs. long form ... yawn.

6:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

here here CJ!!

frkyraider

6:44 PM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

FB Lorenzo Neal was released today. The Raiders signed safety Rashard Baker who was let go by the Eagles.

Looks like we will go with O'Neal and Lawton at FB, McFadden, Bush, and Fargas at RB, and 1 of the following players;

Marcel Reece
Gary Russell
Louis Rankin

Other recent acquisitions;
CB Ricky Manning
LB Morlon Greenwood

6:56 PM  
Anonymous Tokai Raider said...

i turn to raidertake for insightful, informative discussion about the raiders, not about politics or theories about versions of documentation provided to prove someone's birth or citizenship. so, before we start debating health care reform (what kind of plan does randy hanson have? is it employer-sponsored? does he have a deductible? did he have to face a death panel?), can we stick to football?

as an aside, i have to say that this was the most respectful political discussion i have seen in a long time. given the current tenor of the "debate" in this country (it's not really a debate when you're just yelling), y'all have raised the bar.

8:23 PM  
Anonymous Arkansan Raider said...

No, Roy. Actually, citizenship is about more than running for office. Just a reminder.

Thanks, Tokai Raider. We try.

Sometimes we're VERY trying. Heh.

---Jeff

9:29 PM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

1:54 AM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

2:53 AM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

3:10 AM  
Blogger H said...

Wow, Lorenzo Neal released. Didn't see that coming. Oren O'Neal must be coming back better than expected.

I can't see dropping Neal just to get Baker back.

H

5:49 AM  
Blogger nyraider said...

I'm pretty sure J-Mac made a point to suggest that L. Neal had the best block in joint practices the other day. I guess appearances aren't everything.

6:53 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Not good to read the reports coming out of the joint Raider/Niner practices. We need to come into the game Sat and run the ball right down their throat. And then run some more.

Roy

7:10 AM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

7:32 AM  
Blogger H said...

Roy,

Much of the negative is coming from sources like Tim Kiwakami. Be that as it may, I'm more concerned how they perform Saturday as opposed to a controlled scrimage.

H

8:39 AM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

9:18 AM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

9:44 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

H,
From what I read, such as player quotes, it was nothing short of domination. That kind of a one sided beat down is never good. But you are correct, Saturday will mean more.
Roy

11:15 AM  
Blogger H said...

Plexico Burress gets two years for shooting himself.

Interresting, fairly stiff sentence. Must have added some for being dumb.

H

12:12 PM  
Anonymous gary said...

I don't think anything bad can come of this unless the league gets involved, and I don't see how they are going to get anything unless Hanson starts blabbing. Now if someone on the team or staff came out and said how horrible it was.. maybe this dog would hunt.

AFAIC, this came a year too late... the assistant that needed his ass kicked by our HC was SOB. "Ok, thats 35 straight third and longs without a blitz "BAM"!!!

1:57 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

well it appears Hanson is going to start singing. Reports are that his jaw is broken and he has hired a lawyer. This is not good, in fact it is ALL BAD.
Roy

2:28 PM  
Blogger Raider Take said...

This Hanson thing is starting to piss me off.

It's clear to me now that some sort of reckless behavior occurred.

I don't care if Hanson "deserved" it. I don't care if he went up to Tom Cable and called his mother a name and stuck out his chin.

You cannot invite a distraction of this magnitude by losing your cool and getting physical. Not when you are the head coach in the NFL, with so much at stake.

After the initial reports, I had no idea that this could take us to the brink of a possible suspension or felony charge.

Of course, the details of the altercation have not been confirmed. Cable's direct involvement hasn't even been confirmed. So I'm not going to freak out...yet.

However, with the Raiders in recent years, every time there's been smoke, there's been fire. It's not looking good.

2:54 PM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

poise under pressure, good judgment, steady leadership ...

or choking out an asst. coach and saying repeatedly "I will kill you. I will kill you".

Nope. Not good.
---------------------------------
Per Brad Biggs of NFP, Hanson has retained a lawyer and is cooperating with police. Among other things, Hanson has provided the authorities with medical records reflecting not that he has a broken facial bone, but that he has a broken jaw.

According to Michael Silver of Yahoo! Sports, Hanson is "back in the hospital" due to swelling in the jaw. Citing an unnamed source close to Hanson, Silver reports that Cable "is definitely" responsible for the injury, and that Cable "had to be pulled off of [Hanson] two times."

Per Biggs, who also cites an unnamed source, "Cable knocked Hanson out of his chair and up against the wall and into a cabinet. Cable and Hanson fell to the floor, where Hanson was choked, . . . and Cable was pulled off Hanson by the other men before Cable went after Hanson again."

Cable allegedly said while allegedly choking Hanson, "I am going to kill you, I am going to kill you."

3:33 PM  
Blogger Raider Take said...

If Hanson is a punk whom most on the team disliked, why was he allowed the opportunity to stick around and provoke a physical altercation in the first place?

You know that friend or family member who always has problems that are someone else's fault? It's the cops' fault. It's the parents' fault. It the spouse's fault. Trouble follows them, yet they can't figure out why, because they avoid mirrors.

That's the Raiders these days.

3:44 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yeah it is going from minor distraction to full blown crisis. If, and a big IF since I don't have the facts, Cable is suspended or prosecuted kiss this season goodbye.

Roy

4:08 PM  
Anonymous raider00 said...

hey, all this means is that tom cable is an old school coach.

he probably asked himself, what would woody hayes do ?.

what would billy martin do ?

what would buddy ryan do ?

what would don cherry do ?

4:46 PM  
Blogger nyraider said...

If Kiffin wanted Hanson fired, yet he remained, and Cable wanted Hanson fired (as is now being reported), yet he remained, whom do you suppose is in control of the coaching staff?

It sure as hell isn't Cable, or else he wouldn't have had to resort to the methods that are now in question... Hanson simply would have been fired ("for cause").

As it turns out, this is a bad message to send to the players and other coaches; one which has plagued the Raiders for decades.

There have always been players and coaches on the Raiders that had access to a higher authority than the head coach, and they used it to their advantage (and to the HC's disadvantage).

4:52 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Frustrating. Another preseason and instead of concentrating on football it a side show. Instead of me dreaming about playoffs, it's BS like our coach breaking an assistants jaw.

Unbelievable.

Roy

4:58 PM  
Blogger nyraider said...

"Plexico Burress gets two years for shooting himself."

Wow, talk about insult to injury... or in this case, prison time to injury.

What can Cable get for aggravated assault and attempted murder?

Question too is will Davis act swiftly and replace Cable if the rumors are true (which Davis could find out sooner than anyone), or will he let this fester like he did his deteriorated relationship with Kiffin?

I was just getting excited about this year. First Schilens' injury, now this.

5:05 PM  
Blogger Raider Take said...

It's hard for me to jump to conclusions about this incident or our upcoming season.

However, there's no denying that the circus has come to town yet again at the worst possible time, and that there is no upside, and potentially a lot of downside.

5:18 PM  
Blogger nyraider said...

Here’s a simple definition of the organizational structure that enables the kind of nonsense that is presently rumored.

From J-Mac: “They've never had a clear chain of command. There's one boss at the top, a head coach who reports to that boss, and then a lot of other people in sort of a mish-mosh, fighting for their own turf, rather than pulling for one organization. That's what I've always thought about their setup.”

This is compounded by the worst PR in the NFL, perhaps in all of professional sports.

It's hard to believe this will just blow over.

5:53 PM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

I'm not jumping to any conclusions until the facts come out.

Did Hanson cross the line with something he said to Cable and/or Marshall? VERY likely.

Is it safe to say that Cable 'roughed' up Hanson? Probably.

No matter how this is perceived, no matter what details emerge, and no matter how it is ultimately 'resolved' ...

This incident does the one thing that the Raider organization can ill aford to do which is become distracted from making winning football the priority.

6:18 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bama7
Calico, is this the article you refrerred to?
Read this and tell me we aren't one f'd up franchise. H, Blanda... you have your work cut out explaining this one.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AuywEpheAWqwBs45ujXDgLA5nYcB?slug=ms-raiderscamp082009&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

8:20 PM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

9:18 PM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

9:23 PM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

Bama:

Let's not make this an organizational issue. This is ALL on Cable. He used gravely poor judgment and a clear lack of leadership and poise.

The consequences for his actions are putting the team in a bad light, making us the laughingstock of the media world, distracting the team, possible criminal charges, suspensions, and another wasted season befor the first whistle is blown.

Do people make mistakes in heated situations? Sure. Should Cable's character be judged in totality on this one incident alone. I don't think so.

What I am most interested in seeing is how the organization as a whole and Cable in particular is able to bounce back and handle the adversity.

Personally, I would like to see Cable nut up and have a press conference to hold himself completely accountable. The only way out of this shit storm is to bite the bullet and face the music.

If that means facing a suspension and possible criminal charges, so be it.

My general feeling is that the public at large, including the players, would be quick to forgive Cable for this transgression if he was more forthright. The charade the Raiders organization and Cable are playing right now is only making matters worse.

Roughing up an asst. coach who provoked the incident isn't the type of incident that should be the end of the world.

Allowing this to fester instead of resolving it head on is a mistake in my book. The longer this goes on as a distraction the more excuses will pile up if the Raiders play poorly.

9:56 PM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

10:02 PM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

1:49 AM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

1:50 AM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

5:36 AM  
Blogger nyraider said...

“Let's not make this an organizational issue.”

Calico, this is one of the few times you and I disagree. I believe it is an organizational issue, and that’s why Hanson is (still) there to begin with.

Sure, Cable stepped way out of line IF the rumor is true, but Hanson is part of the organizational cancer that breeds dysfunction.

I’m going to read The Yahoo! Sports article again, but it sounds more than plausible that Davis has maintained a mole on the coaching staff.

Let’s not put a Band Aid on a broken back. What’s really sad is that Hanson will remain with the team. Maybe he’ll get promoted.

6:21 AM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

6:50 AM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

NYR -

What I meant by 'this is not an organizational issue' was the incident itself. It seems to me that everyone is getting lost in all the tangential side issues.

What this really boils down to is Cable lost his mind and roughed up Hanson. If Cable doesn't have a mental meldown, we are not having this conversation.

7:03 AM  
Blogger H said...

I'm going to withhold judgment on this thing until all the facts are in. This story seems to have more sides to it than an octagon. Including one that shows Al Davis being the voice of reason and saying he can't undermine his coach when Hanson went to Al to force Cable to put him back on the field.

Ok, I will make one comment. If it is true, as some have been quoted, that Hanson is a tireless worker, but doesn't know when to shut up, then I am empathetic with Cable. I'm not saying he handled the situation properly, but I do understand how he may have been feeling.

It appears from some reports Cable had already reduced Hanson's role as a coach a significant amount and Hanson didn't like it. Hanson then kept pushing buttons until he found the right one. If that is so, Hanson would be the instigator.

Hinesite being 20/20 or better Cable should have had Hanson escorted off the premisies by security. But, under this scenerio it seems Hanson had been forewarned. It just doesn't fit Cable's personality, as we know it, that he would attack someone without provocation.

So, I'm going to have a couple of cool ones and see how the team reacts Saturday. I'll have to go store bought this time since the latest batch won't be ready for another week or two.

So it looks like it will be a nice imperial pint or two of Sam Smith's Oatmeal Stout. I haven't figured out how to make that one as good as he does. Must be something about the water in Tadcaster.

H

7:20 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bama7
Calico, with all due respect, you read that article... with its numerous quotes and anecdotes of dysfunction... and you come away with only Cable's lack of control as a problem? Seriously?
I mean we have several former players and coaches discussing several really ugly, dysfunctional incidents... all of which usually point back to the fact that one faction in the organization is pitted against another faction and you see only Cable as a problem in that article?
NY said it best... why is Hanson still around period? How has this guy and many others hung around through the coaching changes?
What is his value? Why make new coaches use old coaches that aren't helping?
One quote says hanson is known as a snitch that has been undermining the other coaches by going back to the front office to tell whenever the coaches are changing schemes viewed unsatisfactory by the front office.
I don't see how we can expect to win a championship anytime soon with our situation. It's not going to happen.

7:36 AM  
Blogger H said...

Ok, something just blew through my semi-functioning brain.

If players are getting second and third chances with no jail time for beating up girlfriends and wives, what should Cable's punishment be.

Brandon Marshall is on like his third chance. How many chances did Lawrence Phillips get. I'm not condoning what happened as I don't know all the facts. Just trying to gain some perspective.

H

7:42 AM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

8:07 AM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

8:37 AM  
Blogger H said...

Panty,

I agree, at this point no second chance needed. I was just doing a little "table setting" as some in the media have already assumed guilt without benefit of due process.

Another thing to consider. We went through a period of WWTD (What Would Tatum Do?).

Under the scenerio I previously painted with forewarnings and button pushing, I contend he would have clocked the guy, but would have warned him first. But, we still don't know all the facts. I am still withholding judgment, but will comment.

For as Indiana Jones said, “Archeology is the search for fact, not truth. If it’s truth you’re looking for Dr. Tyree’s philosophy class is right down the hall.”

H

8:41 AM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

Bama/NYR:

I must be a really bad communicator. At no time did I say that the organization wasn't dysfunctional. For the record, I haven't read the article that you are referring to yet.

What I was merely focusing on was this one singular incident and stating an obvious fact:

If Cable doesn't blow his cool, we are not having this conversation. Period.

We can play the what if game all we want (ie. What if Cable had Hanson escorted off the premises, what if Cable merely gave him a tongue lashing, etc.).

We can talk about how Hanson is a complete weasel who provoked the incident into we are blue in the face.

Just doesn't matter. What's done is done. It is time, once again, for Humpty Dumpty to put himself back together again.

From the reports I've read, Hanson slinked his way into Davis office after being demoted. Davis stood by Cable's authority and generously gave Hanson 3 options;

(1) Work in the Personnel Dept.
(2) Breakdown film
(3) Do nothing and get paid for the remainder of his contract

I don't know why Hanson wasn't fired. It sounds like Davis gave him an opportunity to earn money, finish his contract instead of being shown the door.

8:42 AM  
Blogger Raider Take said...

I just can't believe that we have joined the circus yet again.

You know what? I can go driving today, roll a stop sign, get caught, and it won't be a huge deal in my life. I won't like the fines, but it won't disrupt my existence.

However, if I've had a bunch of tickets, have a reckless driving conviction, am on parole, etc. and I roll a stop sign, then that's a different story. The consequences will be much graver.

That's the Raiders. They can't afford to roll stop signs. They've been driving recklessly for too long.

It doesn't matter who's to blame for this incident, it's just another instance of not having their act together. They have lost the second part of their slogan: Poise.

9:06 AM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

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9:13 AM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

9:22 AM  
Anonymous gary said...

>>>>
It doesn't matter who's to blame for this incident, it's just another instance of not having their act together. They have lost the second part of their slogan: Poise.
>>>>


Uhh.. what if Hanson made the entire story up?

9:48 AM  
Blogger H said...

Calico,

I didn’t say “What if Cable had Hanson escorted off the premises”, I said, “Cable should have had Hanson escorted off the premisies by security.” (copy and paste including misspellings)

That fits your contention of if Cable hadn’t lost his cool we wouldn’t be having this conversation. And, what’s wrong with putting up opposing scenarios? It’s more entertaining than wringing my hands saying “all is lost.”

I realize you’re not saying all is lost. But, while waiting for all the facts I think it’s a worthwhile exercise to see under what circumstances Hanson could be partially culpable for the incident instead of saying Cable should have kept his cool therefore he’s guilty and Hanson is a total victim of an unprovoked attack.

H

9:48 AM  
Blogger H said...

One more thing.

The three options Al offered:

1 & 2 were ways for Hanson to get back into the good graces of the organization.

3 was a way of saying if 1 & 2 aren't good enough, you can go without the word "fired" associated with it.

All three pretty fair options, but Hanson chose none of the above, so here we are.

My only question that I havn't seen answered is when did the conversation with Al take place, before or after?

H

9:54 AM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

H: I'm more than happy to allow more time for more facts to emerge. All of us, you included, have made various assumptions, speculations, and offered our opinions.

I feel confident and safe in saying the following;

Hanson is a weasel who provoked Cable to blow his top.

Cable, in some form or manner, physically attacked Hanson.

9:57 AM  
Blogger Raider Take said...

What if Hanson made it up?

Well, then, you've chosen to keep a known crackpot on your staff, and now that particular chicken has come home to roost.

It's not the Raiders' fault, it's Hanson's fault...And Ryan's fault, and Hall and Moss's fault, and Kiffin's fault, and Walsh's fault, and Hererra's fault and...

Well, if it's all their fault, then stop hiring clowns, otherwise, it's YOUR fault. That's where the organization stands right now.

As an isolated incident, this isn't that big of a deal. But it's not an isolated incident. It's part of a pattern. Patterns don't just happen. Patterns are created.

9:58 AM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

H:

As I understand it, Hanson's converation with Davis about options took place BEFORE the incident.

10:00 AM  
Blogger H said...

Never mind, according to one article Hanson met with Al on "Saturday". I assume last Saturday.

H

10:04 AM  
Blogger H said...

Calico,

I can accept that, especailly the "weasel" part.

But, the timeline appears a little muddled. Who on this site is responsible for fact checking?

I vote for Psycho. Where is he by the way?

H

10:08 AM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

10:08 AM  
Blogger H said...

Take,

What if Hanson made it up?

I like that one, lets go with it.

H

10:11 AM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

10:14 AM  
Blogger H said...

Calico,

One additional fact we do know. Many in the media are quoting their unnamed sources who are, in turn, quoting their undnamed sources.

Much of what is out there is second hand at best with even more being third hand.

Thus far only one source has been willing to go on the record with his name and he is backing Cable at the moment.

H

10:20 AM  
Blogger H said...

Ok, I can't resist:

http://www.cbssports.com/columns/story/12092070

Go there and tell me Ray Ratto doesn't look like a fat guy who's had too much plastic surgery.

H

10:24 AM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...

Cable/Hanson...

One article says that Hanson has lawyered up, and is talking to the police. Another article, by David White, says he contacted the police and was told they haven't heard from Hanson at all, and are currently planning no investigation.

So we have the typical media situation in this day and age. The Raider/Al Davis haters are selecting the portions of what comes out to back up their hatred.

From the film I've seen of Hanson, he appears to be an exceptionally annoying individual. He seems like the kind of guy who doesn't know when to keep his mouth shut, putting him at a daily risk of being clocked by someone.

Cable has always seemed too cool a costumer to act as reported by some.

10:36 AM  
Blogger nyraider said...

I think it's a matter of treating the symptom or the cause. If you treat the symptom, you look at this as an isolated incident (the stop sign reference RT made), but if you want to treat the cause, it's much, much deeper, and probably more complex than we'll ever know.

Why is Cable being forced to maintain an assistant coach on his staff that he doesn't respect or trust? We know why this guy was retained on Kiffin's staff, but I thought we got past that.

10:40 AM  
Blogger H said...

Blanda,

Unidentified sources of unidentified sources.

Here's the quote from the David White article:

"Napa Police Lt. Brian McGovern said he was aware of the media report but that the case remains closed until the victim pursues charges."

Notice something different there? Right, a named source.

So, unnamed sources of unnamed sources say Hanson IS persuing charges and truning over his medical records. It seems Hanson has told everyone except the police who can't open and investigation based on an internet report.

I would think he would want to have that conversaiton with the police before going public with his intentions.

H

10:56 AM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

11:04 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Calico says:

"If Cable doesn't blow his cool, we are not having this conversation. Period."

Can't resist, all the dousing of flames on this site is so funny....Jack...if it didn't happen now, something would of down the line..just a matter of time. It only took one preseason game for it all to poison itself once again.

Al keeping a spy, a guy he could use in his 1000th lawsuit, against Kiffin. A spy guy with a rep for squealing and undermining. A guy who was a mole for Al that Cable obviously resented.

Yes, the pattern is set Take, Kiffin went through it, now he is stuck in the web (lawsuit). Cable is in trouble and stuck in that same web. A web of lies and deceit, everyone knows that those who live by the web, die by the web. This is what we are witnessing as well as the complete coming apart of a team AGAIN.

Yes, some will grasp at the worship of Al Davis while others will see it for what it is, all the while being called a "fair weather fan". I feel pity for Al Davis, he will go to his grave without learning the true lessons of life. He will be a legend on earth, but his future doesn't bode well.

JONES

11:14 AM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

11:20 AM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

11:27 AM  
Blogger H said...

Jonesy,

Welcom back Mr. Truth himslef.

Well I know I'm repeating myself, but as Indiana Jones said, “Archeology is the search for FACT, not truth. If it’s TRUTH you’re looking for Dr. Tyree’s philosophy class is right down the hall.”

I don't see any flame dousing here, some pretty decent discussion, but no flame dousing.

Got any FACTS you can substantiate, or is this more of the truth as you see it.

H

11:32 AM  
Blogger H said...

Panty,

The attorney was named, one John McGuinn. But my favorite quote is this:

"The National Football Post is now reporting that Hanson has lawyered up and is fully cooperating with Napa Police."

Which, according to David White is news to the Napa police.

H

11:38 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Time will once again tell H man.You keep pretending that these things aren't happening. Even a blind man can see what is happening in Alameda. I bet you have eyes, but you still can't see, too bad for you.

JONES

11:38 AM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

11:43 AM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

11:47 AM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

11:49 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

punty says:

"As you post yourself as a Raider Fan and self proclaim as the future "HC" of the Oakland Raiders"

Since when have I ever said/wrote that was any kind of coach? Punty, your dilusion is as thick as Alameda's. Now I see why you worship Al Davis...maybe you are Al Davis, you seem crazy enough to be him.

JONES

11:54 AM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

11:59 AM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

12:06 PM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

12:09 PM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...

Jones, your goal here seems to be to order people to agree with you. Not that you necessarily are one, but that kind of approach is usually from a flat-headed moron, so insecure with his own ideas he must dismiss all others.

Folks come here to enjoy the Raiders, wait for the season to roll, and to exchange prognostications. But you certainly can wear folks out. Too often they have to come here and wade through your vomit.

Nobody minds your opinions, but you can't seem to provide such without insulting everyone else.

You're kind of a vile individual. Why do you come here? Do you make some kind of annual tour through blogging sites just to crap on everybody's good time?

12:12 PM  
Blogger H said...

Jonesy,

I see pretty good. 20/15 right, 20/25 right. Not bad for an old guy.

H

12:14 PM  
Blogger H said...

Blanda,

Notice how with the offseason being event free and camp being pretty positive to this point, that Jones was totally absent.

Not that there's anything wrong with that (a little Seinfeld parody and I rarely watched the show).

H

12:18 PM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

12:19 PM  
Blogger H said...

Oh, Blanda, you forgot how much we like to argue.

H

12:20 PM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

12:30 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bama7
H, Blanda, Panty... you've managed to once again deny the obvious. Absolutely amazing. No one will persuade you three that our franchise has any problems... to you our only problems have been dumb writers and mislead, vengeful ex-employees.

12:38 PM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...

H, it wasn't lost on me at all. A great off season, an excellent camp so far - Jones nowhere to be found. First sign of media controversy, Jones is here with the "truth." That, of course, gets Bama fired up, and here we go again.

Jones, Bama, been there, done that. Let's talk about something new.

1:00 PM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

1:24 PM  
Anonymous Arkansan Raider said...

NFL selling doggie Vick jerseys now

No, I'm not making this up.

---Jeff

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/2009/08/19/2009-08-19_eagles_dog_jersey.html#ixzz0OqogCOI8

1:25 PM  
Blogger Raider Take said...

Napa police press release:

Assault Investigation (Oakland Raiders)

On August 6, 2009, the Napa Police Department was dispatched to the Queen of the Valley Hospital regarding a report of an alleged assault that had occurred the previous day at the Raiders Training Camp Facilities in Napa, CA. The victim reported he had been assaulted by a staff member of the Raider’s organization. The incident took place at approximately 10:00 AM on August 5, 2009.

Upon initial contact the victim did not want any police action or formal charges filed. The victim refused to identify the responsible or any potential witnesses. Due to a lack of information provided to the police department the case was closed. Since that time, new information has come to light which has resulted in the investigation to be re-opened. Due to this being an ongoing criminal investigation no other information will be provided at this time. Any future updates related to this case will be posted in the Press Releases section on the Napa Police Department’s webpage at the following address: www.napapolice.org

2:01 PM  
Blogger Raider Take said...

The problem over the past few years is that every time I say I smell smoke, some folks try to convince me it's just a barbecue, when, it fact, it always turns out to be a fire.

So now there's smoke in the air, once again. Is it just some hot dogs on the grill? Or another fire of distraction that will undermine our potential?

2:05 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Punty...go ahead and find where I said I was a coach


Blanda, you are projecting

H...don't care what the doc says, when it comes to the Raiders, you are 100% blind.

Take: these guys couldn't wear your jock, all their huffing and puffing has no affect on you and that is because YOU KNOW THE TRUTH.

JONES

2:25 PM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

2:26 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

punty says:

"If in fact it was Al Davis who put "His" Mole in place to "Spy" on the team than why the hell would Al Davis let the people whom were being "Spy"ed upon remove "His" Mole...."

Wow, you really are stupid....the reason why this blew up is BECAUSE THEY COULDN'T FIRE HIM. BY all reports Cable wanted him gone, Al wouldn't let it happen. Cable knows he is undermining him and explodes when he pushes on his D.C.

If Al let's Cable fire him, which still hasn't happened, it doesn't happen. This guy caused trouble with Kiffin, now Cable and causes Cable to explode and HE STILL ISN'T FIRED..hmmmm, think mentalmidget, why would that be? Could it be this guy has something Al wants? Could it be the guy knows this and uses it against Al so as Al won't turf him?

Come on punty, you have to do better, you can't expect others to believe your dilusion.

JONES

2:33 PM  
Blogger Raider Take said...

No Chicken Little here, just a bit of "Boy Who Cried Wolf."

Nothing happened. Cone of silence. Move along folks, it's just a barbecue. Wait...Grab the extinguishers, we've got a fire!

It's the same old thing every time, and naturally it's getting OLD.

So I'm hoping that this isn't the same old thing for once. That would be nice. Gather 'round the barbie. Just hot dogs and beer.

Now THAT would be nice for a CHANGE. But that's not up to me. That's up to the Raiders.

2:35 PM  
Blogger Raider Take said...

___________

Without using names, Lt. Brian McGovern said the incident at the Napa camp at 10 a.m. on Aug. 5 was originally considered a misdemeanor but is now being investigated as a felony assault.

McGovern said the department learned about the incident on Aug. 6, when officers were summoned to the hospital on the report of an alleged assault by "staff members" of the Raiders.

"The victim did not want any police action," McGovern said, and did not name any witnesses or cooperate. McGovern said the case was closed at that point based on a "lack of information."

"We at the Napa Police Department, our officers investigated it to the best of our abilities, but we were handling it as a misdemeanor," McGovern said. "But a broken jaw does make it a felony - that is why the case is being reopened."
_______________

2:46 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

ok, put yourselves in Cable's shoes for just a second. your tryin to change the culture of a team and organization that has been losing for the past 1/2 decade plus. (just couldn't bring my self to say 6 years!!!). which i beleive to be what we all want too, am i wrong?

now how do i go about that? well you identify the problems and solve them one by one. we all with the plan so far?

if after discovering that one of said problems was the rat fink in the coaching ranks you try a few things to solve that problem. ok, those didn't work now what? get rid of Al!! lmao, ok so thats out. that part aint changin.

if i let this weasel get away with it again and again the"culture" will not change. the players and other coaches will just say the same ol shit. no change. so i announce, that if it happens again i'll take matters into my own hands on the spot and let the chips fall where they may. my objective is to rid this place of what i think is detremental to our cause. WINNING!! i'll do whatever i deem nessasary to get this job done. if this is what it actually took, then so be it. isn't this what we want done? want to argue the methods, ok we can do that, but this is how Tom Cable beleives it should be done, RIGHT NOW. and since he's the one we tabbed to do it, i say lets let him.


now lets say that this whole thing worked and two years from now this organization is running like a well oiled machine. all theanks to TOMMY CABLE jackin a mutha in his lips when he got outa line. would this guy be a cult hero or what?

frkyraider

3:00 PM  
Blogger nyraider said...

Curious why Hansen has not pressed formal charges.

My understanding of the law, which isn’t much, is that the police don't need Hansen if they can find evidence of a crime... in which case I believe Hansen could be charged with obstruction (that may be a reach).

Could it be that Hansen is protecting Davis (i.e., the Raiders season)?

Maybe Hansen is part of the crime (he hit somebody first).

Maybe he's going to man-up, take his licks and keep this thing internal (like it's nobody else's f-in business).

3:03 PM  
Blogger Raider Take said...

Frkyraider, you have just penned a novel titled, "The Upside of A Felony Assault Investigation: How one punch and police interrogations restored one NFL team's commitment to excellence."

Personally, I'd prefer we get back to winning via more traditional means, like the draft and disciplined route running

3:06 PM  
Blogger Raider Take said...

Cable yesterday: “Yeah, we’re still going to take care of it internally."

Unfortunately, there's a new proctologist on the scene: the police.

3:09 PM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

3:13 PM  
Blogger Raider Take said...

PantyRaider, I just think it's futile to direct our ire at the media, the police, or even Hanson at this point.

Yes, the media are biased. Yes, the police might have their own self interest in mind. Yes, Hanson might be a punk who had it coming.

Go ahead and bang your head against those walls, but all you're going to get is a headache, just ask the Raiders.

The FACT is that the Raiders are now embroiled in a felony assault investigation, which will result in police interviews and related distractions at a bare minimum.

Is this the kind of organization that has demonstrated an ability to handle distractions? No.

Somebody lost their cool and acted unprofessionally, and once again the chickens are coming to roost.

3:23 PM  
Blogger nyraider said...

PantyRaider -

Protocol is what reopened the case, not the media.

“Police weren’t aware of Hanson’s condition at the time the report was filed because X-rays hadn’t yet been read, Napa Police Lt. Brian McGovern said.”

When they found out Hanson’s jaw was broken, it became a felony investigation.

From NFL.com... “Police and league officials could begin interviewing potential witnesses, including several Raiders coaches. Defensive coaches Willie Brown (defensive backs assistant), John Marshall (coordinator) and Lionel Washington (defensive backs) are among those who sources said could have been privy to the incident.”

3:43 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Let the games begin. I swear I have read this book before and it doesn't turn out good.

Roy

3:49 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

RT,

"Personally, I'd prefer we get back to winning via more traditional means, like the draft and disciplined route running"

i totally and whole heartedly agree, but maybe just maybe this is a means to that end.

frkyraider

ps. hey, i penned my own novel!!!lamo

3:56 PM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

4:03 PM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...

You know, something happens at almost every Raider camp, and has since the beginning of time, that will get the media all in a frenzy. It usually winds up amounting to absolutely nothing.

The investigation has gone from a misdemeanor assault to a felony assault merely because of the broken jaw. The injury tolls the felony, not the attack.

As Cable keeps saying that when all of the facts are known it won't amount to anything. I'd point out, and there seems to be some credence to this, that Hanson was waiting to see what his coaching position was going to be after meeting with Al Davis before he decided how to respond. Since he didn't like the option he was given, he's now layered up, and calling for a police investigation.

Now what does this tell you? No matter what really happened, can you spell blackmail? I suspect that if Cable did hit Hanson, it wasn't without adequate provocation under the law. If Hanson had been assaulted simply for an objectionable remark or criticsm, I'd suspect he'd have file charges when he went in to the hospital.

It could also be that Hanson has only filed charges because he plans on a personal injury lawsuit against the Oakland Raiders. His attorney would then require him to file charges to bolster his case.

Nobody here knows anything. Nothing. Including the press. For that matter, including the police. In the mean time, those who want to piss on the Raiders season will continue to do so, and those on board for a turn around will continue to stay on board.

4:58 PM  
Blogger Raider Take said...

Actually, I do know something: the police are conducting a felony assault investigation related to the Raiders' coaching staff. That is a fact.

The incident, whatever it was, was avoidable. That is a fact.

Someone on the staff (Hanson, Cable, and/or someone else) put the team's focus in jeopardy by acting unprofessionally. That is a fact.

And unprofessional acts have become a pattern in this organization. That is a fact.

Other than that, I know nothing.

5:05 PM  
Blogger TheFreakingPope said...

Call me old fashioned, but I for one am not that opposed to a bit of physical violence between men.

The 1st Ammendment isn't worth sh*t if you can't take a pounding for saying the wrong thing, at the wrong time, to the wrong person.

Yes, you are entitled to your opinion. Yes, you are free to say what you like. But, like it or not, someone may decide that your comment deserves a punch in the face.

Now, protest if you will, but I'd wager each and every one of use could name at least one thing we'd take a felony assault charge over. Be it your mother, your sister, your girlfriend, your wife, or your child, some things can not be said in regards to them.

But again, I may just be old fashioned.

5:53 PM  
Blogger Raider Take said...

Hey, knock yourself out (or someone else). Just don't act surprised, if you're a public figure, in the spotlight, in this day an age, if it gets you in hot water and causes your employer serious headaches.

Go ahead, be old school, and don't wear a seat belt. But don't act surprised when you go flying through the windshield.

6:00 PM  
Blogger TheFreakingPope said...

Oh, don't get me wrong, I understand your point.

All I'm saying is that I just wish men could, from time to time, punch each other in the face without having to call mommy in to sort things out.

6:06 PM  
Blogger Raider Take said...

I'm with you, Pope. You and I both wish it. But that's the difference between us and the Raiders (and some on this board). We understand the difference between the way things ought to be and how they are, and we adjust accordingly.

6:08 PM  
Blogger TheFreakingPope said...

In the immortal words of William Shakespeare, "Let us show mercy...Let us say that it was too much wine that set him off".

6:09 PM  
Blogger Raider Take said...

That's why I love this place. Where else are you going to get a Willy Shakes reference during a Raiders felony assault discussion?

6:10 PM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

BR:

I am hopeful for the best, most expeditious outcome of this unnecessary distraction.

However, you act like this incident is a customary occurence that is media driven and much to do about nothing.

The Napa County Police has an open felony assualt case and is actively investigating it to include interviewing Raider coaches.

Don't you think Willie Shaw, Lionel Washington, John Marshall, Tom Cable and other "witnesses" have more productive things to do with their time than to be interviewed by police detectives.

I understand the reaction of burying your head in the sand or brushing this incident under the carpet ... "nothing to see here folks, just weenies on the grill!"

Unfortunately, this is no longer an "internal issue to be handled in-house".

We are well past that point when the NFL and Police Dept. are sticking their noses into our business.

The Raiders are in one of the most important time frames of an entire year RIGHT NOW. This is the key stretch to get our units working as well oiled machines. This is the time for finalizing our final 53 man roster. This is a dress rehearsal for when the curtain goes up on 9/14.

To act like this isn't a distraction and detrimental isn't using a lot of common sense.

I'm not saying the season is lost. My concern is that the timing of this incident could not come at a worst time. To me it feels like a black cloud will continue to hang over the Raiders head UNTIL this matter is put to rest one way or another.

RT: You got any ketchup for my dog? I'll take a pint of Guinness to wash it down.

7:13 PM  
Blogger nyraider said...

A couple thoughts:

This issue can remain dead in its tracks as long as nobody talks. Consequently, I disagree with a previous argument that Cable should just come clean. This is a felony matter and should be handled with the upmost caution.

I have to believe that all parties involved regret what went down. So, if this matter can be settled internally and without further incident, then that’s what should happen.

Perhaps I’m being selfish as a fan, but the alternative stands to get real ugly in terms of legality (a felony is no laughing matter - just ask Plaxico), the league and the media.

Off topic, is anyone watching the Cowboys game tonight? Davis must be pissing his pants after seeing the Cowboys’ (his buddy Jerry’s) new stadium. Wow!

I guess the Raiders have more important things to consider right at the moment.

7:57 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bama7
The hanson guy must be liked by Al. He's been given a nice gig for awhile... but now he's pissed and humiliated, sitting there with a broken jaw. So now the police are involved but yet the guy owes his nfl career to Al. What to do? The smart money is on Hanson doing Al the favor of getting over his mistreatment... keeping it in the family.
The problem is why was he even on our staff? These guys... favorites... just float around forever... coaches, players... no matter if they mesh or not.

8:43 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I agree with NY, Cable should keep his mouth shut. This is bigger than football for him, a felony charge can result in prison time not just an NFL suspension. There is no way to spin this as other than negative. Even if this entire story is a media creation, it is bad. Real bad.

That said, I was beginning to feel that minty fresh feeling. Now I just think it is the menthol flavored tooth paste.

Roy

9:15 PM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

9:29 PM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

5:38 AM  
Blogger nyraider said...

On the lighter side, this from PFT:

"During Friday night's preseason opener at the billion-dollar venue, Titans punter A.J. Trapasso hit the (TV) structure, which is perched only 90 feet (above) the playing surface.

The official rule for handling such a development? A do-over.

Former Raiders punter Ray Guy likely would have been doing it over and over again all night. In 1976, Guy hit the video screen at the Superdome during the Pro Bowl, which was positioned much higher than 90 feet over the field.

"To this day, that's the thing I get asked about most," Guy told the Oakland Tribune in 2007. "More than the Super Bowls, more than the Pro Bowls, more than anything I did in football. People want to talk about the time I hit the scoreboard at the Superdome."

5:54 AM  
Blogger PantyRaider said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

7:00 AM  
Blogger Raider Take said...

Calico Jack, let's make it a Dos Equis in honor of PantyRaider. I think that he might be the most interesting man in the world.

7:01 AM  
Anonymous memdf said...

Here's a ggod one on the Cable-hanson thing...

"If in doubt, rip the Raiders; Cable affair brings out vultures"

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/lieberman/detail?entry_id=45959#ixzz0OvFAsVV0

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/lieberman/detail?entry_id=45959

7:31 AM  

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