Monday, January 08, 2007

The Future Is Now: Quarterback

If you can discern the Raiders’ plan at quarterback, please enlighten me. Every time I thought they might be making a move to the future with Walter, they handed the ball to Aaron Brooks. If it later came out that the position was being managed according to the laws of voodoo or astrology, I wouldn’t argue.

In retrospect, and as I feared, passing on Matt Leinart and Jay Cutler in the 2006 draft may come back to haunt us. Sure, Michael Huff is solid, and potentially a force. But look at it this way: What if you were to call the Cardinals or Broncos and offer them Huff for Leinart or Cutler, straight up? That conversation would last about one second, and it would end in dial tone. For obvious reasons.

The fact is that all positions are not created equal. See kicker v. running back. Or, in this instance, safety v. quarterback. When your offense lacks identity, leadership and stability at its most crucial position, a safety or cornerback can only take you so far. What about Troy Polamalu or Brian Dawkins, you say? I say: If you like the sound of dial tone, call the Patriots and offer Troy Polamalu for Tom Brady. Call the Bengals and offer Brian Dawkins for Carson Palmer.

Just how important is the quarterback position? Consider the eight teams playing this weekend. Of these eight, only one, the Chicago Bears with Rex Grossman, have any question marks at quarterback—now or next year (assuming that Donovan McNabb heals). We’re talking about guys named Brady, Manning, Brees, Hasselbeck, Rivers, McNair and McNabb when he heals. It’s not a coincidence.

The funny thing about quarterbacks is that they all suck. You know what I mean. Just mention the names Peyton Manning or Donovan McNabb, and a dozen people will jump up and tell you how much they suck. Well, let me just say that I wouldn't mind sucking like that.

Allow me to digress for a moment…The coaching search is really heating up, not only in Alameda, but here at Raider Take. Please check out the more than 100 comments on the preceding take for an inspired and insightful discussion about our coaching needs. There’s not much I can add to the discussion at this point, especially with the local media chasing red herrings and leading us down blind alleys.

In the same day, one outlet says John Shoop is being fitted for the crown while another outlet says he’s not even under consideration. Click here to read the contrasting stories. It reminds me of last year, when Raider Take’s favorite columnist said Al Saunders was sure to be our next head coach, only to be repudiated by his own paper the next day, which reported that Saunders was never really in the running. I’m glad these folks aren’t covering world politics or war or something else where getting it right can be a matter of life or death.

So while the plot thickens on the coaching search, and as we wait for more legitimate information, I am inspired to launch an offensive positional analysis under the banner of “The Future is Now.” Thanks to Damon for the idea. We begin the series with the position of quarterback.

One thing I don’t want to hear is: “Al never…” or “Al won’t…” as in “Al never picks a QB in the first round” or “Al won’t want the financial headache of selecting a first-round QB.” Even if Mr. Davis isn’t finally re-thinking the strategy that bracketed Rich Gannon with Jeff George, Kerry Collins and Aaron Brooks, that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t.

Do you think Aaron Brooks has what it takes, and that he should lead this team in 2007? If so, please speak up. If you think we should put all of our eggs in the Andrew Walter basket, please tell us why. If you think we should pin our hopes on yet another journeyman free agent, I’m all ears.

If you say none of the above, then you’re treading on “Al won’t” territory. You’re treading on first pick in the first round territory. You’re treading on Brady Quinn, JaMarcus Russell and Troy Smith territory.

To be honest, I don’t spend a lot of time breaking down college game tapes. In fact, I spend almost no time watching college football. In a perfect world, maybe I would. My world isn’t perfect. The trash needs to be taken out and Mini Take needs his diaper changed and there’s a lot of Raiders stuff that needs tending (and, alas, all three of these activities have lately become increasingly similar). So I can’t say I know a lot about these potential first round prospects, except to say that Troy Smith is dropping like a stone after tonight.

I didn’t get a chance to watch much of the bowl contest between Quinn and Russell, either. I did turn it on, however, just in time to see Russell hurl the ball 50 yards in the air off his heels for a touchdown strike. Very impressive. It’s being reported that he hasn’t quite decided to declare himself for the NFL draft. If he does, then he’s worth a serious look, based on what I've heard and seen to date.

As for Quinn, I’m not sold on his throwing motion. It looks a bit clipped to me. He seems to come up short in big games, too. Also, Brady is a great last name for a quarterback, but a questionable first name for a quarterback. Not to be shallow, but if we’re going to break the Ken, Jim and Rich mold, we might as well do it in style with something like JaMarcus.

So let’s review: Brooks, Walter, New Journeyman or First Round Draft Pick? Even if we pick someone in the first round, we’ll need someone to keep the seat warm for several games before he starts. But for the sake of this discussion, let’s not think in terms of Week One in 2007, but rather Week Fifteen, or even 2008. If we agree that stability and identity are important at the quarterback position, then in addition to acting now, we need to think ahead.

Personally, I haven't worked it all out yet. There's a lot of time between now and the draft. I do know, however, that I'm getting tired of instability at quarterback, of looking for the next Gannon needle in the George, Collins and Brooks haystack, of hearing, "Al never...."

Maybe Al should?


Blogger gcp said...

I agree you can't give up on Walter, nor can you say he is the future for sure, I say Draft Russell and bring Sarkisian.

2:33 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I feel Walter had his chance and didn't do anything with it. I wanted to trade Porter to Atlanta for Schaab but I don't think Petrino will go for it. I wouldn't mind trading for Michael Vick if he would play RB at Oakland. Obviously, we need help everywhere on offense. Trading out of the number one spot to pick up another number one, we could get the RB we need and still find a QB. (The kid from Louisville would be a great choice later in the first or in the second round) This is wishful thinking on my part. Al should find an OC and let him set a game plan suited more for the 21st century.

3:48 AM  
Blogger Joaquin said...

Marino and Montana would have fared the same as Brooks and Walter behind this OLine and our OC.
If we are going QB with the #1 pick, we better have an OLine in place and an established QB coach. Without those two ingredients, you're pi$$ing up a rope with a QB in the #1 pick.

4:43 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well many of us have been saying "Al should" for years.

Raiders fans are stranger than many when it comes to QB, they more than any other teams fans i'd say DETEST the idea of ever drafting a 1st round QB - they take their lead from Al.

As i guess you know ever mention drafting a QB to the NATION and "Ryan Leaf" gets spat all over you in a microsecond.


My breakdown.

1. Aaron Brooks. What needs to be said here? He's the same boy you've always known, "can't lead, can't win can dance a little", NO NO and thrice NO.

WTF was Davis thinking?

Please spare me the "Brooks was brought in to babysit Walter" routine.

2. Andrew Walter. It IS unfair to evaluate Walter on this season with this line, with Walsh, etc but frankly my dear i don't give a shit.

He doesn't have it. You can see in his eyes he doesn't have it. His butter fingers are the stuff of nightmares, turnovers will ALWAYS come this kids way in bunches, it's what he is.

I liked him coming up, i liked the youtube vids we all saw, but they didn't show his immoblity properly, or his total lack of pocket awareness, or a very innacurate arm.

And that's the killer IMO. He threw just over 55% in college, Russell has thrown over 64% in two meaningful years.

I look at is like this, people excused passing on ML/JC because of AW last year, it was a HUGE mistake, now people want to pass on JR/BQ/BB whoever AFTER we've seen AW play?

You want to make that mistake again?

'04 PASSED Got Gallery instead. Mistake

'06 PASSED Got Huff instead. Mistake.

All positions are not created equal and we don't have the most important in place, and for the third time in four years, we have a GOLDEN oppurtunity to get a franchise QB.

Pass that up because AW has some excuses? Pardon my French, but Fuck that.

Also to the people who want to keep passing on QB's because the line is no good, all this time were wasting PASSING on REAL QB'S, the line is getting no better, we are still losing, and we are not fixing QB either.

The "no point getting a QB because the line sucks" argument is a total red herring, you might as well say there's no point drafting LB's because DT and RDE is no good. Never hear that though.....

The truth is, both line and QB need fixing, but the idea we should wait 3-4 years to get a really good line and then get a QB is total and complete nonsense.

It's always "We can get a Quarterback next year" Well FUCK THAT and pardon my French once more, we've waited already "Next year has been and gone TWICE already, the results are in, we've gained NOTHING by waiting, and we still suck.


Sick and tired of this half ass, terrified of QB bullshit every year.


5:46 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

One of the (many) things that was a shame about this season is that Walter didn't really get a fair shot. You can't evaluate anyone fairly when they're running a playbook drawn up by Fred Flintstone eons ago.

Having said that, I think we have to take Russell. We've been drafting in the top 10 for a few years now and have never taken a franchise QB. We used to complain that we'd never get a guy like Elway because we never draft that high. We've never had the #1 pick in my lifetime and I hope we never do again, let's capitalize.

And I would be a little wary about an average looking QB who put up good numbers or has a recognizable name, like an Eli Manning. But Russell looks like a "once every 20 years" kind of talent. And he doesn't just chuck it 85 yards, he had the third best passer rating in the nation. And he can run. And he weighs 260. I'll take a chance on him, especially if we have a legit QB tutor like Sarkisian or even Trestman.

Again, we hold the #1 pick. If we pass on this guy and he becomes an unstoppable force for 10-12 years, we'll all be kicking ourselves. I've had enough reasons to kick myself as a Raider fan lately, thank you...

6:25 AM  
Blogger nyraider said...

First, it looked like OSU QB Troy Smith was playing behind the Raiders O-line last night. Nuf said there.

Given our O-line, any QB we install will need mobility, something Walter struggled mightily. I agree with RT that NO player is a substitute for a franchise QB. That’s why I’m on board with drafting “J-Man” Russell, if he declares (I was earlier fooled by the mediots that he had already declared). Al Davis loved Vince Young and probably would have drafted him last year, given the opportunity. Now he has a chance to draft a Vince Young-type.

The main thing I can suggest to Walter supporters is that Russell seems to have physical traits that Walter does not. We need a QB that can win games for us despite our O-line. For those who argue we need an O-line first, we can’t draft an entire O-line with one pick.... but we can draft a franchise player.

So here’s my draft priority:
(A) QB Russell (if he declares);
(B) WR Calvin Johnson (6'5" 235 lbs);
(C) Trade-down the first pick and stockpile picks

A & B are “freak” opportunities that only come with a top-3 draft pick, something I hope we never have again (unless we trade up).

6:37 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Take, I'm on e of the few guys who has consistently said one of the two things you don't want to hear. "Al Davis Never drafts a QB first round."
I said it last year with Young, Leinart, and Cutler in the draft. As much as I wanted either one of them, I just knew in my heart we would not get either one of them.
I even began my early draft takes here, that we need a RB, and have echoed the sentiments of the previous posters that Walter hasn't had his fair chance.
But now I'm leaning that we need to draft JaMarcus Russell with the first pick. Here's why.
Tui is a free agent, and will more than likely not resign with the Raiders (maybe the Bucs, Lions, Browns, and even Texans from what I hear).
Brooks is going to be cut, and rightfully so. Walter needs some stiff competition for this job. Bring in JaMarcus, and let the 2 fight for the starter of the future.
If we bring in a "vet," the name I like the most here is Leftwich; who is more than likely going to be cut by the Jags in favor of Garrard. If he's not cut, we can trade LaMont Jordan for him.
Also, here is the other reason why I'm saying draft JaMarcus. By doing so, we still have the opportunity to draft a RB with our 2nd round pick. MarShawn Lynch. If we think he will be picked up in the first round, we trade our 2nd round selection, for a low first round (like Baltimore, New England, Philly, etc). This would solidify the top needs that a team needs to build around offensively, QB and RB. We build our offensive line with free agency, and the rest of our picks. We at least get a TE through free agency, and maybe trade Moss for a second rounder, and select Limas Sweed/Steve Smith at WR.
It makes sense to me now to draft a QB, because we can still draft a solid RB in the 2nd round, and to me of the 2 positions, RB is the "bigger" hole on offense we need to fill.
I was against it earlier, because I didn't think we could get a RB in the 2nd round, and I'm not sold with Quinn or Troy Smith (though I'd rather take Smith over Quinn). Now that we can possibly draft a decent RB in the 2nd round, it makes better sense to me to draft Russell.
I just checked the weather, Hell is not froze over, but it is cold here in Austin.

7:06 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

NYRaider, I would like to have Calvin Johnson, but I'd pick Dwayne Jarrett (if he enters) over him. More than likely though, Jarrett is not going to enter.
I think the only way we draft a WR, is if we rid ourselves of Moss and Porter. Then we can realistically draft a #2 WR in the late 2nd/early 3rd round pick. Someone like Limas Sweed (Texas) and or Steve Smith (USC).
Then make the WR spots as such:
#1-Curry, #2-Sweed/Smith, #3-Gabriel, #4-Carlos Francis, #5-Will Buchanon

7:15 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"If we bring in a "vet," the name I like the most here is Leftwich; who is more than likely going to be cut by the Jags in favor of Garrard. If he's not cut, we can trade LaMont Jordan for him."

1. Leftwich is slower than Kerry Collins. We don't want a repeat of that.

2. He isn't going to be cut, hwe will compete with Garrard who also sucks.

3. Why would Jax want Jordan who sucks, when they have Fred Taylor and Jones Drew?

7:32 AM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

There is no need to over-analyze this decision or get tricky about it.

Threre is no need to consider trading down to stockpile picks.

This choice is as clear as day. We've got the #1 pick. We need a franchise QB. JaMarcus Russell is everything we want in a QB.

The HC and QB are the primary leaders of any successful football team. RT points out in his post the playoff QBs like Brady, Brees, Hasselbeck, Rivers, McNair, McNabb.

The other part of the equation is the HC. HCs like Belicik, Payton, Holmgren, Shottenheimer, Billick, Reid etc.

Ryan as HC - A true leader of men

Sarkisian/Trestman - A real offense for the 21st century plus excellent coaching for young QBs Russell and Walter.

JRuss - An unbelievably talented QB

This would be a solid foundation to renew your silver and black hope. I'm fired up just thinking about it.

7:39 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What I would like to see happen this draft with the first 2 picks, and highly possible. #1-JaMarcus Russell. #2 Michael Bush (RB, Louisville) who just entered and is coming off injury; but a stud. Bottom line, JaMarcus is to freakish to pass on, even if Walter hasn't had a fair shake to be the QB of the Future. You know what, neither did Tui, and when he came in to show what he was made of, he couldn't live up to it; which is why they drafted Walter in the first place. Plus, nothing like a little strong competition to see what both are made of. Plus, JaMarcus is better than any of the veteran QB's we've spoken of. NYRaider already said it, that Al loved Vince Young; and if he loved Vince Young, he's going to be Russell's jockey. I think Russell is that much better than Young.
Unfortunately we have to consider the other scenario's because you never know with Mr Davis (and I mean that in all goodness). We could go after a veteran RB like Cedric Benson, and draft a WR in the second round (Limas Sweed or Steve Smith). Benson is unhappy in Chicago, and Chicago is not happy with Cedric; and is likely to be cut/trade possibility after their season.
Now, if we don't draft JaMarcus (which would totally be the stupidest thing EVER), here are our options. We should draft a RB/WR, depending on if we acquire a veteran RB. With the 2nd round pick, I'd take one of the following at QB: Brian Brohm (if he enters), or Colt Brennan (QB, Hawaii), John Beck (QB, BYU), Zac Taylor (QB, Nebraska), Chase Holbrook (QB, New Mexico State), or Kevin Kolb (QB, Houston). None compare to JaMarcus, but I think all will have better NFL careers than Quinn, Henne, Troy Smith, and Chris Leak.
On the Steve Sarkisian interview, I don't think he interviewed for the HC spot. I think he interviewed for the OC. Just my opinion, because all the mediots are reporting on their assumption that HC is the only vacancy in Oakland. Not too mention Steve's statement in the IBA article, "I didn't feel like there were any other candidates he wanted to interview." That doesn't sound like an interview for the HC spot.
But those are my thoughts about the draft, it should be JaMarcus; but we have options if we are stupid enough to pass on him.

10:55 AM  
Blogger StickUm25 said...

It always concerns me when there is late hype on a player or coach. I don't follow college ball much, but I don't recall anyone talking up Russell until the bowl game, at least not as a number one pick. He seems to have the stats and size, but which is the better comparison - Culpepper or Leftwich? He seems to be mobile, but he only ran for 133 yards this year at less than 4 yards an attempt. Last year he ran for even less.

That seems to indicate he is more in the Leftwich mold. In that instance, would we be better served with Leftwich, if he becomes available, or taking a gamble on Russell?

My preference is to go with a franchise running back like Peterson. I think we could slide down a couple of picks and get him. Looking at the draft-pick value chart, it looks like it takes a #4 and #12 to trade up to the first pick. No one currently has multiple picks in the 1st round, so if there is any discussion about trading down we have to consider if we'd wait until next year to pick up that 2nd first rounder. I don't think we can wait.

I'd target a quarterback with our second round pick - hopefully Brohm lasts that long. If not, see if someone will take the 2nd rounder for a Schaub or someone similar. I think we'd be better served with taking a young backup who has potential - the learing curve should be shorter, and the evaluation should be more accurate since he will have played & practiced against pro competition.

Taking a QB #1 will not, by itself, be the long term solution. Look at current guys in the playoffs like Brady, Hasselbeck, Brees, Green, & Romo. They were not even selected early in the draft, let alone first round selections. The fate of the offense will most certainly come down to who we end up with as HC & OC. They will develop the offense and the quarterback, and turn him into the leader on the field. That's been our biggest problem since Gannon went down - none of the quarterbacks since him have established themselves as the leader. That is what will give us the long term solution we need.

12:18 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


I also do not follow alot of college ball, but have watched J Russell over the past 3 years. Not every game, but enough to know that he could be the real deal. (My wife and her family are LSU alumi and I catch a game whenever they are on TV). I have heard several so called experts talk highly of him throughout the year...but of course, it's the Brady Quinn's and Troys Smith's that get the attention. All I know is the dude has a cannon of an arm, is mobile, has a pretty high completion pecentage and a good win loss record in the tough SEC. Personally, I have concerns about ANY first round selection regardless of position, but of any of the QB's, he has most if not all the tools.

As far as his rushing yards, I have no concerns. The LSU offense was not built around him tucking and running the ball. They were a good running team (with RB's)and Jamarcus was looking to pass first rather than take off running.

I keep picturing him (in Silver and Black of course) scrambling outside with only Chump Bailey between him and the goal line. I think Chump would leave a stain in his dirty little Donkey drawers.

Anyway, if we do decide to pass on him and take the top RB, we should then come back with a QB in round 2 (or trade up a few spots into round 1)

Either way, I am looking forward to the 2007.


12:53 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have often thought the finding Jim Plunkett was one of the best things that ever happened to the Raiders, ans also, one of the worst things that ever happened to them.

Obviously, it was one of the best because of those 2 great SB wins.

But it was one of the worst because Al Davis has spent over 30 years trying to do it again.

Maybe Al should accept that finding a Qb as talented as Plunkett on the NFL scrapeheap, was a once in a lifetime event.

Just a few points about Andrew Walter.
Do people realize that Cutler, & Romo fumbled the ball about as much as Walter did ??

I agree with those who say it's much to early to give up on Walter.

The kid played only 8 games in his career, surrounded by some of the worst players, & coaches in the league.
I'd like to see more, and under better circumstances.

And for those already sold on Jamarcus Russell.
Remember, the sexy pick,(Vick), is not always the best pick,(Brees).

So keep a name like Brian Brohm in mind on draft day.

1:06 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Walter has shown some intangibles that show he has what it takes to be and NFL QB. He Stands tall in the Pocket, he didn't get rattled even though he was under tremendous pressure on every stupid 7 step drop. He turned the ball over, but every young QB does, and its the easist thing to correct in a young QB. Elway, Manning, Aikman, Favre, they all turned the ball over early on in their carreers. A cool head in the pocket is the one thing ALL good QBs have. Last Time I checked Tom Brady and Peyton Manning aren' very mobile either. Taking Lienart last year would have been a good move, but taking any QB from this week class #1 to "make it up" is not. Calvin Johnson, or Adian Peterson are high impact can't miss players and we can't afford to Whiff "al la Ryan Leaf" on a High 1st Round QB. We can still probably get Troy Smith in the 2nd round, but we need Value on the 1st pick

1:08 PM  
Blogger RaiderRealist said...

Gentleman, here are some critical needs on the offensive side of the ball that need to be addressed:


I won't even get into it about the O-line. We could spend a whole draft trying to fix that mess.

I say we go after Russell with the first pick. The British SAS have the motto "Who Dares, Wins," and I think we should be daring and take Russell. We've done the conventional thing and it got us Gallery(he's closing in on Tony Mandarich territory) and we passed on Leinart/Cutler. Huff looks good so far, but as some have stated you can't compare apples and oranges when it comes to certain positions.

At running back I don't see us snagging Peterson unless someone else in the top 10 wants to trade down and is willing to do a deal with us. So I say watch Lynch and Michael Bush. Lynch might last to the 2nd round(probably not) but I think we could pull a Frank Gore with Bush due to his injury. Either way I think there's more to choose from at RB than QB this year. My dark horse candidate is Garrett Wolfe out of Northern Illinois. Same height as Maurice Jones-Drew, but weighs only 177. If he's hanging around in the 3rd round, pick him up and feed him steak, beans and rice until training camp and plant him in the weight room. I think this guy can play, and you can never have too many RBs.

WR- I like Calvin Johnson and Dwayne Jarret. We probably won't be able to get either one, so keep an eye on Steve Smith out of USC, Jarret's fellow WR and see if he's there in the 2nd round. We could also see which WRs from Florida declare for the draft and see how they do in the combine and where they shake out on draft day. Don't underestimate a late round WR, our #1 receiver(Curry) was a 7th round pick.

TE- Unfortunately I think that ship sailed last year with Vernon Davis, Marcedes Lewis. Maybe someone will pop up in the combine, but I don't see any good prospects out there right now.

Before the bowl games I was leaning towards trading down and stockpiling picks, but I think we're staring a great opportunity in the mouth with Russell and we should not let him pass by.

1:16 PM  
Blogger Raider Take said...

A kind reader wrote me, making the point that any QB, including Matt Leinart or Vince Young, would likely have been doomed to failure on the Raiders in 2006 due to our collapses on the line, along with other issues on the offense.

I agree that it's quite possible that any QB might have been doomed to failure this year. Yet the situation is now compounded going into 2007 because our QB plan still seems unclear.

I think of Alex Smith and the Niners, who were abysmal in 2005. But Smith is their guy, so they slogged through it, stuck to their plan, and consequently progressed significantly in 2006.

I suspect it will be the same with Leinart and the Cardinals in 2007. Rough start, then progress. Am I saying that Leinart or Smith are going to the Super Bowl next year? No. Am I saying that their respective teams have clear QB plans with a lot of potential upside? Yes.

It's this sense of identity and direction at the QB position that I find missing with the Raiders right now (and for the past several years).

I thought our team might be counting on Walter, but I now see no evidence of that, he's been on the roster for two years, and he's still playing musical chairs with Aaron Brooks. Why is this, if he's our guy?

1:22 PM  
Blogger nyraider said...

RT, besides being a mistake, I believe playing Brooks over Walter was merely Shell's attempt to get a Win, and nothing more. The "greater purpose" for Walter and the team's maturation was never there.

Raider00: I don't think anyone is suggesting that Walter not be given more opportunity. However, if we draft Russell, or bring in anyone else for that matter, Walter should have to fight for the job... let the best man win. JaMarcus!

1:54 PM  
Blogger StickUm25 said...

azraider63 – That’s good to hear. I prefer the opinion from someone who has seen him play than from a mediot. I don’t necessarily want a running QB BTW – I was just wondering what type of player he is. The comparisons I’ve seen are to Culpepper, but the stats didn’t seem to bear it out.

Take – I agree with your assessment that we’ve lacked direction with the QB position in general. Gruden / Gannon was the last time we had a tandem that provided direction and leadership. Still, you can’t fault Walter for not being on the field. I can make a couple of guesses as to why he went back to the bench when Brooks returned - his comments critical of the offense occurred at that time and Brooks showed some life in his first game back against KC. I believe Shell thought they could turn things around at that point, as he then made the switch to Shoop. Anyways, I don’t think we can interpret how the front office feels about Walter based on the failings of Shell and his staff. I’m still on the fence about him at this point, but I don’t think he’s so hopeless that we need to make replacing him our top priority.

1:55 PM  
Blogger RaiderRealist said...

The main thing that worries me about Walter is his pocket awareness or lack thereof. I remember someone referred to him as Bledsoe, Jr. I wouldn't go that far, but he's fairly immobile. With the line we have its a recipe for disaster. He could be a good QB, but he would need one of the best lines in the NFL to do it. That takes time, and we're a team that has posted single-digit wins, double-digit losses for the past four years. I don't think we can wait that long.

2:07 PM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...

It's not exactly true that Al won't draft a QB. He's done it three times, once with no results except a lost draft choice, once with poor results, and once with bad results.

The first time, he took Roman Gabriel who opted for the NFL rather than the AFL Raiders. The second time he selected Marc Wilson. The 3rd time was Todd Marinovich. Wilson turned out to be a great back up, but a lousy starter. Marinovich was brought up his whole life to be the next Ken Stabler, but by the time we drafted him he was tired of that and wanted to be a drugged out surfer.

The reason Al doesn't like using up the first pick is not because it's failed for him in the past, but because the thinking was it takes three years to develop a QB, and there is no immediate impact. But that thinking was developed in the days when QBs also called their own plays.

My thinking says that Russell is the guy for us. However, I don't think we should draft him if it means giving short shrift to rebuilding the O-line. To me, O-line is job one. You can do a lot of damage to a rookie QB by just letting him drop back to get pummelled. He'll develope a lot of bad habits. I present one Andrew Walter as exhibit number one.

However, I believe we can get Russell, and rebuild the O-line.

2:09 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It's as simple as this people.

Do you want a real QB or not?

If so, then you should support drafting one, if you are content to see another year like last and the three previous to it from the QB position with NO hope for the future, then make excuses for incredibly limited Andrew Walter.

31 other team in our spot would not even be having a debate, it doesn't matter how bad the line is, Walter is no good, and Brooks never was.

RT has talked about comparing apples with apples.

Well comparing Walter and Russell is apples and oranges, Walter simply isn't anywhere near the same class of prospect as Russell not does he have anywhere near the upside.

From RT

"I thought our team might be counting on Walter, but I now see no evidence of that, he's been on the roster for two years, and he's still playing musical chairs with Aaron Brooks. Why is this, if he's our guy?"

He isn't "our guy" never was and never will be. He was never seen as potential franchise QB we were going to hand the keys too. He was simply a cheapo option to whichever failing vet we had at the time.

The perceived wisdom that we passed on ML and JC because of Davis loved AW was way off, it was a flawed assumption.

"Hey, they must love Walter right?"

Nope. We've seen that, Brooks played meaningless games because a) Walter so just so unconscionably bad and b) He isn't the future, he's the new Tui.

I said it all along, Walter was used as an excuse to pass on a QB again, because Davis loved the ass off Michael Huff.

Ok, the "get a QB next year" "the line is no good" "so and so hasn't had a chance" "Ryan Leaf" "Get a vet QB" arguments have all had their day and FAILED.

We've tried all that short term crapola, and the "safe" picks like Roberta Galleroid and Michael "low impact" Huff.

The tired old lines don't carry any weight anymore.


2:26 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Most people are agreeing in getting the frnachise QB at #1 and I'm with that. AB walks the plank and AW stays and provides competition. Tui signs elsewhere.

2:29 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Stickum 25:

Russell is mobile and the comparisons to Culpepper are more accurate than Leftwich. The difference is Russell scrambles around to give receivers more time to get open. He is not an option QB, like most running qb's.


2:59 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Great takes. I agree with the Russell selection as a cornerstone and identity, of sorts, to this offense. The guy throws a football like a baseball.

It is also reported he can throw 40 yds from his kness. He'll need that with the current O line, but one thing at a time. I am still concerned about the offense he would be running. The vertical game nonsense must go.

As I have said in a previous post, Al will be seduced by the physical skills of this kid and do the right thing in spite of himself.
I hope.

4:20 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Damon Huard of the Kansas City Chiefs in my eyes did a great job filling in for the injured Trent Green. Huard helped the chiefs beat the almighty Chargers. 1 of 2 lose's the chargers had during the regular season.

Huard is an Unrestricted Free Agent at the end of this season. Which is the same way we got Rich Gannon from Kansas City. I say address the offensive line through free agency. Get Huard, JaMarcus and keep Walter. Lets hope that Moss and Porter see the future turning around and want to PLAY HARD and if they dont want to, so what. Get Morant some playing time and Curry is amazing!

Lastly Hire Rob Ryan as the head coach since he did such a great job with the defense this season.

4:23 PM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...

I can't remember where I read it, so I can't find the article, but it appears as though the Cards are having the players inteview HC candidates.

I don't know about others but this really rubs me the wrong way, in the same way it urks me when Al lets the players tell him who to fire and who to hire.

Just because someone is likable, that doesn't necessarily make him a good coach. Ultimately there is only one key for a coach to be liked - winning. Vince Lombardi likely would have been the most despised man in Wisconsin if the Pack had been losers during his tenure. On the flip side, the Raider players LOVED Joe Bugel - right up to about the first couple of weeks into the 1997 season.

4:24 PM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...


I agree completely that Walter has no pocket presence. It's not that he's immobile, although he's not nimble. He has the ability of a great quick release which should make up for that.

His problem seems to be Marc Wilson syndrome. He has absolutely no awareness of an impending sack. He stands there like the Statue of Liberty while rushers close in and knock the ball free. To me, this removes the question of why Brooks continually started over Walter. At least Brooks stood a chance of getting the ball away, even if he often threw it to the wrong person.

Russell is the man. He is much like Roman Gabriel. I remember Gabriel standing in the pocket. Rushers didn't bother him at all - because they couldn't knock him down. He typically had about three rushers hanging on him by the time he threw the ball.

But Russell is beyond Gabriel, because Russell can also move. He seems, already, to have a great sense of the rush and where to move to avoid it. You can't teach that, and Russell already has it.

4:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I would hate to waste another 1st round pick on a blocker who is not proven in the NFL. Gallery is a good example of this, BUST!

Get offensive line through FREE AGENCY! Who have proven themselves! Maybe Gallery will come around one day...I want to see Da Raiders win a Super Bowl next year not 5-10 years from now.

I agree with Raider Take, any QB would have been doomed behind the OL of 2006.

4:38 PM  
Blogger nyraider said...

Anon 4:38, I wouldn't expect too much from FA. None of us should be surprised when our O-line looks much the same next year as it did this year, with the hopeful exception of a much needed veteran leader. Also, I believe good coaching, by itself, could have a positive impact on our line.

Honestly, I'm surprised by the overwhelming concensus to pick Russell. Memdf, your point that "Al will be seduced by the physical skills of this kid and do the right thing in spite of himself..." is a good one. Seems that's what we're all counting on.

4:58 PM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...

nyRaider and RT:

While I think that Russell is an excellent choice for the first pick, I would not feel the same about using that pick on Quinn or Smith.

Russell was the only one of these three who was actually prepared to play in a game of national consequence.

Should Russell decide tomorrow to stay in college for another year, I think that would be an indication that he doesn't want to play for the Raiders. It's not necessarily his feeling, but taking the advice of others.

If he stays in college, we should use that pick elsewhere (RB, TE, WR). If we picked Patterson with the first pick, I'd explore the possibility of converting Jordan to a FB, and running more from that position, and having Fargas as the back up RB.

As for O-line, I agree that we are not going to be able to rebuild through the draft. We need experience and leadership there. As I stated a long time ago, I'd look for one tackle and one guard, and explore the possibility of converting Gallery to center.

5:07 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

BlandaRocked, Although I do not remember Roman Gabriel being drafted in 1960, I do remember watching him play in the late 60'2 and 70's. My curiosity got the best of me when you made the comparison of Russell to Gabriel. After checking my Topps 1969 Football card set, I now see why. FOr those of you unfamiliar or too you to remember, Roman Gabriel stood 6'4" and 230lbs. Here is a list of QB's playing during the time of Gabriel:

Dawson 6'0" 190
Unitas 6'1" 196
Kapp 6'2" 212 (and was considered big)
Namath 6'2" 195
Griese 6'1" 190
Starr 6'1" 190
Lamonica 6'3" 215
Blanda 6'3" 215

I know it has little to do with J Russell as our next QB, but I thought it would be interesting to add granularity and clarification to BlanaRocked's comments towards Roman Gabriel


5:37 PM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

There seems to be a sizable consensus that we should draft JaMarcus Russell. I have no doubts whatsoever that this is the right choice.

The arguments for not taking JaMarcus are very puzzling to me.

("Walter wasn't given a fair shot")

Walter was given an 8 game tryout under less than ideal conditions BUT no one can say with any certainty that "he's our guy". The 8 game tryout created more questions than answers. Some of the things I noticed were not good;
- penchant for fumbling & bad reads leading to INTs
- poor pocket awareness
- very immobile
- BAD body language and prescence
- poor overall accuracy

Put another way, what exactly does Walter do better than Russell?

("We should trade down to stock-pile picks")

Granted, the Raiders have quite a few holes to fill and needs to address BUT when a franchise QB is staring you in the face, you seize the moment. I could make a case that we have only had 1 good QB in the last 22 years. Is it a coincidence that the one time we had a good QB (Gannon) was when we were a playoff/SB caliber team? Of course not. The QB is the most important position, bar none.

("Let's addresss our O-line 1st so that our QB will have a better chance to succeed")

A good QB with the right skill set and intangibles can enhance everyone's performance on the offensive roster. Walter's immobility & Brooks' bad decisionmaking are 2 prime examples of limiting the productivity of the offensive unit. How many times did a Walter fumble/sack contribute to a loss? How many times did a Brooks inopportune pick contribute to a loss? Yes. We definitely need to fix our O-line. All things being equal, I'm convinced that if you rolled Russell out in the same conditions as Walter/Brooks faced, the results would have been much better.

("Let's trade down for Brohm")

Brohm could very well be a good NFL QB but clearly the physical tools and upside of Russell is far superior on every level.

("Let's take Peterson and take a QB in the 2nd round")

It is far easier to get a good RB in the 2nd, 3rd round or FA or trade than it is to get a franchise type QB through the same means.

("Let's wait until next year to get our franchise QB")

First, why wait? Russell is a franchise type QB. Second, who in the 2008 draft is worth waiting for?

Final point: In regards to Russell, I have been scouring the net, reading scouting reports, reading newspaper articles, watching video clips, watched the Sugar Bowl ... I have yet to hear 1 bad thing about Russell. Everything I have seen, read, and heard about Russell makes this draft choice a "no-brainer".

For all the RT posters who disagrees with this assesment, please name 1 specific thing about Russell that concerns you besides the obvious generalizations like "Well you never know if a highly drafted QB will be a bust like Ryan Leaf".

9:02 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


I wouldn't complain if the Raiders drafted Russell with their top pick. I'm just not as high on him as I was the Qb's last year.

I look at a Russell vs Brohm debate, the same as the Vick vs Brees debate. We all know how that turned out. At least so far, Brees has been the better, more polished Qb, while Vick, the "freak", Qb, has driven his coaches mad.

So before we just grab Russell without a second thought, let's at least consider the idea of getting much needed extra picks, and still ending up with a top Qb prospect in Brohm.

I mean think about what Stick'em said, how no one was even talking about this Russell kid before the Sugar Bowl.
Then, he lights up a soft ND defense, and all of a sudden he's the number one pick in the draft.

I say let's slow down and think about this a little bit. This is, afterall, the most important draft in Raiders history.

Ending up with DT Branch, & Qb Brohm, instead of just Russell, might be better for the men in Black, in the long run.

9:33 PM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

Raider 00 - I won't pretend to be a college football expert. The only team I see on a regular basis is USC since my dad is a season ticket holder. I'm sure most avid college football fans (especially in the south) were very aware of Russell's amazing physical talents.

The comparison of Russell and Brohm is an interesting one. Both could very well turn out to be excellent pro QBs. When comparing the 2 prospects, it is important to point out the following;

- Russell had better statistics (3,129 passing yards, 67.8 % completion, 167 QB rating, 28 td/8 INT ratio vs. 3,049 passing yards, 63% completion, 159 QB rating, 16 TD/5 Int ratio)

- Russell played in a much better conference (SEC vs Big East)facing stiffer competition

- Russell has a much stronger arm

- Russell has better overall physical tools than Brohm. 6'6, 260 lbs mobile QBs with rocket launching arm strength don't exactly grow on trees.

Anyone with any concern about Russell's mobility need only to look at how many times Russell was sacked this entire season ... only 15 times.

The thing that I would really dread which would be an absolute nightmare scenario is the Raiders trying to get tricky with the draft down to get Brohm and he ends up getting snatched by the Browns, Bucs or another team in the top 10 picks.

My question to you Raider 00, is far do you think we can "safely" trade down to insure we would get Brohm? 4 of the 1st 5 teams all need franchise QBs.

My thinking on the draft is that Russell is the best franchise QB prospect. I would take him with no regrets.

10:39 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


Well, there are a lot of questions to be answered before we even get to the draft.

First, are we staying vertical, or going west coast ??

This is important, because if it's vertical, than I'm probably more inclined to say, go with Russell.

But if it's WC, maybe Brohm would fit better.

My feeling is this. The Raiders offense has a complete lack of talent, and is in need of a total overhaul.

I would be very comfortable with the Raiders trading down a bit, loading up on picks, and taking 0-linemen, D-linemen, Rb's, TE's, LB's, and signing Chris Simms as a free agent.

Please keep in mind that I desperately wanted Al to draft Lienart last year, and I believe you build your offense around a good young Qb.
But I am just not sold on this Russell kid to the point that I would put all the eggs in one basket.

10:59 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

One thing I'd like to add about why Walter is not the answer and why we need to draft Russell... the thing Walter is lacking is LEADERSHIP. I remember his first start where he floated a perfect deep pass to Moss along the right sideline and Moss, of course, alligator armed it, and it dropped helplessly to the ground... that pass could have changed our entire season IMO... if a true leader was out there he would have ripped Moss a new asshole, regardless of his superstar status... you know damn well that Brady would have done it his rookie season. All I saw from Walter all season was either a look of a deer in the headlights or complete disgust... not someone I want leading my team... and I think the offense knew it.

Thus, our only choice is to take a QB with LEADERSHIP qualities, something we haven't had since Gannon, and build a team around him. I don't follow the college game much, so I have no idea if Russell has this, but it is what we need before we worry about anything else.

RB is our second most need, and they more often turn out when drafted later than QB's... I don't think Al has a choice here. He has to take Russell, and I'd be shocked if he doesn't, and I've hit his thoughts on the last two high draft picks.

10:59 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

("Let's wait until next year to get our franchise QB")

First, why wait? Russell is a franchise type QB. Second, who in the 2008 draft is worth waiting for?"

CALICO JACK nails it.

Wait for what? Wait for whom? Why wait at all?

Why do we always have to wait until next year for a Quarterback? how come No-one ever says "let's wait until next year" for a LB?

Tired of waiting and we've waited for three years already. Waiting isn't even an option anymore. If Davis blows this, well never get a good QB while he's still alive - FACT.

The truth is some fanns would NEVER draft a 1st round QB, NEVER.

4:33 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Panty, we don't need to keep Langston Walker; he and Barry Sims need to go. I agree moving Gallery back to his natural position RT, but only as a backup. Right now, I'd rather take Boothe at RG over McNasty, and Slaughter at LG/LT. I would go after veteran LT/RT in Free Agency.
I'm leaning more toward going after a veteran RB via Free Agency or Trade. Here's why. Ahmad Green is an unrestricted Free Agent. He would be a nice addition to our backfield right now. I've also mentioned that Cedric Benson. We would have to trade for him, but I think he's another good fit in Oakland. Both are big bruising backs, who run with strength, and are hard to bring down. They don't need holes, they make them.
My other reason behind this is the '08 Draft. Look at who's going to be Draft Eligible. P.J. Hill (RB, Wisconsin), Darren McFadden (RB, Arkansas), Ian Johnson (RB, Boise St), Mike Hart (Sr RB, Michigan), Ray Rice (RB, Rutgers), and Steve Slaton (RB, West Virginia). All in the Top 10 at their position this past season. Next year is a RB draft, and I think if he stays healthy, Darren McFadden could win the Heissman. And Heissman RB do well in the NFL!
So we can go after a veteran RB for at least 2 years, and draft one of these bad boys next draft, and be gravy with JaMarcus Russell at QB. Then with the second pick this year, get Limas Sweed/Steve. Smith

5:38 AM  
Blogger nyraider said...

R-8-er mike: trade Nmamdi??? For who? And, replace him with who? Vet CBs are expensive. Or, are you suggesting we draft another DB in the first round, i.e., for only the 7th time in 10 years. The other three years we drafted two OL and a kicker with our first pick. Yikes!

All Al needs to see is Russell throw at the combine and it’s lights out. Our biggest worry right now is whether Russell declares. As for his thoughts about playing for the Raiders, here are some pros and cons.

Pros: Raiders are a storied franchise; have a solid defense; and will be aggressive in trying to right the ship (unlike some other perennial bottom dwellers who might be in a position to draft him next year).

Cons: O-line and potential for QB slaughter (see brooks running for his life or Walter simply getting dumped); and coaching uncertainty and instability.

It would certainly be in the Raiders best interest to hire a solid O-minded coach, either HC or OC, before the 15th. Other teams searching for a HC have interviewed half a dozen candidates. Why do we continue to drag our heels. Whisenhunt won’t even consider the Raiders, Petrino snubbed us, and others are not being pursued. What will it take for the Raiders to do the right thing at HC?

6:19 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Some comments on Russell:
To those that have posted that he lit up a weak ND team--look where he put the ball--nearly every throw was on the money--necessary for hitting the small windows in the Sunday league.

"he's mobile"--no, he's not. He actually looks fat to me. He's strong and don't get me wrong, he can make plays on draws and sneaks and can throw with men on him, but if you're expecting Steve Young or a young McNabb back there, that's not the case. I don't view this as a weakness, by the way.

Brian Brohm--looks like the paper boy compared to Russell...a much more risky proposition

7:12 AM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

LK - Russell is mobile as in ...

he moves well in and out of the pocket, has the footwork, and athleticism to avoid the rush.

Russell's mobility is on par to an early (healthy) Dante Culpepper.

7:28 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

He has the side step and pocket awareness you can't teach, Walter doesn't have either, he has the instincts of a goat.

I'd say the DC comparison is spot on for mobility, possible even better if he lost 10lbs. I bet he's down to 250 for the combine.......

7:58 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

hey gary..... if you knew anything about the game.. a rookie qb does not yell and scream at a potential hall of fame player,that is not leadership,it is suicide....if he did it,all the veterans would lose respect for him faster than moss can quit.... as far as him just looking totally disgusted and not saying anything... look at the one time he did speak out..he got benched,would you want to speak out knowing you will be sitting for doing it??? just because a KID doesn't look great in his first 6 pro starts in an offense that wouldn't work with unitas and an o-line that couldn't block or anyone in the backfield that couldn't pick up a blitz... does not mean he is a bust and anyone who says that just doesn't know the game... he still hasn't been given a chance,if you ask me he did show leadership by not b i t ching and by getting up everytime he got pummeled and trying to do something to make it work even though him and everyone in the stadium knew it wasn't going to work because of the reasons mentioned earlier in this post.... give the kid credit,if you saw him in post game interviews you would of saw a kid still determined to do whatever he could to make it work.... when you are trying too hard or trying to compensate for obvious weaknesses,of course a young kid is going to make mistakes,he was trying to make something happen because the whole offensive situation was a joke and he knew it.... give him some credit,no qb is a good qb in his first 6 starts other than a handful in the history of the league..... so to call him a bust is ridiculous.

8:15 AM  
Blogger StickUm25 said...

So then we say Russell has better pocket awareness, rather than being mobile? That doesn’t sound like Culpepper to me. Look at his stats. The first 5 years Culpepper started, before the knee injury, he rushed for over 400 yards each season. He picked up between 28 to 46 first downs rushing each season. That’s a dimension that is similar to pocket awareness in my opinion – innate, rather than taught - and I think it’s an important point. That is what helped make Culpepper so dangerous. If Russell is not inclined to run, fine, but let’s be accurate about what the skill set is.

It’s not that I’m against Russell. If we take him with the first pick I’ll be in his corner, no problem. I just look back over the last 10 years, and I don’t see 1st round quarterbacks as necessary for a Super Bowl run. I look at what San Diego did by trading Vick for Tomlinson and drafting Brees in the second round. I see Seattle adding Hasselbeck to an established Alexander. I see Roethlisberger taking over a Pittsburgh team that had an outstanding rushing attack. Palmer joined a team that was transitioning from Dillon to Rudi Johnson. It just seems safer to go for the next Tomlinson than to go for the next Culpepper. I think the team benefits by getting a go-to back, establishing the ground game we desperately need, and going from there. I’d have no problem going with Russell if Jordan had fit the bill, but at this point I don’t think any of us are of that opinion.

8:56 AM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...

The Walter v Russell debate:

This time Calico and I come down on the same side. First off, the argument is moot if Russell declares, today, that he's in for another year of college. Should that be the case, I'm not sure there's another QB on the board worth a #1 overall pick.

However, I've completely lost any faith I've had in Walter. Walter bears as much responsibility for the team's poor play this year as anybody else. There's one aspect, not having to do with his play, that really bothers me.

What Walter presents as confidence is not confidence at all but bravado. It's the Rusty Hilger syndrome. The difference between confidence and bravado is that confidence is based in reality, bravado is a cover - a shield - to mask against one's own personal short comings, to hide the fear that you are not really as good as you claim. When the ball is snapped, and Walter drops back, look for his eyes in the headlights.

When watching Russell, I watched a man who did not concern himself with breakdowns. His eyes were constantly searching for an opening, a way to get things done. Think Kenny Stabler. I saw a man who could use an economy of movement to put blockers between himself and pass rushers, or simply sidestep like a matador. Think Jim Plunkett. I saw a man with the ability to run the ball up field, but always attempted to stay with the play until it was no longer an option. Think Rich Gannon.

These are the qualities that take a QB years to develope. The lack of these things are the reasons for not using a #1 pick on a QB.

Al, if Russell declares for the NFL today, call him in for an interview. Nail down his contract before the draft. Then build your offense around him.

8:57 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Coupla thoughts.

Sadly we won't move quickly on Russell, Davis likes to bullshit too much, he likes to think no-one can work out what he's up to.

That's a common misconception right there. Davis is very easy to read, he follows patterns the same way a dog follows a trail of sausage.

People talk about trading the pick away or "trading back", that's fantasy, Davis covets his 1st round picks, he'll do anything to get back into the 1st round or move up - he never moves down.

Right now Al Davis has his hands on the 1st overall pick in the 2007 NFL draft, he will be in deep bliss mode for the next three months.

Davis and the 1st overall pick reminds me of Charlton Heston in that NRA ad "From my cold dead hands" - it's the same with Al and this pick.

Remember it took RANDY MOSS then the BEST WR in the game to tempt him to part with the 7th overall pick. Not the 1st overall.

People wanting to trade back for multiple picks are going to be disapointed, it 'aint happenin'.

Possible picks?

I can only see three right now.

Russell, Johnson, and Peterson.

I think Davis is still having nightmares about Robert Gallery.

9:38 AM  
Blogger nyraider said...

Ghostraider, there's still the possibility that Al doesn't see the obvious. For example, we drafted SeaBass in the first round. That's my nightmare... another complete melt down.

9:48 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ghostraider, I don't think Calvin Johnson is better than Dwayne Jarrett. When JaMarcus declares, he will be a lock on the first pick.
What we do with the 2nd Round pick depends on how we address RB. As I said in my last post, the RB field is going to be head above shoulders in '08. If we go after a veteran RB, then we draft a WR in the 2nd round. If we don't, then Michael Bush will be our pick.
I agree with BR that RB is a better position to build around, but I having a QB who makes great decisions, has accuracy in the long ball, has great downfield vision, moves/and has awareness of the pocket well is something that should not be passed on.
My only concern with Russell, that I don't know the answer to, is does he tend to "lock" on the WR he is going to throw to? If so, that may be a trait that will have to be fixed immediately (maybe Gannon could help as QB coach).
We need a leader offensively, and I think Russell would step in that spot nicely.

9:52 AM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

Stickum25: In my opinion, Russell has pocket awareness AND mobility.

The pocket awareness is an innate ability to sense when to slide a step or 2 forward or to the side. Footwork, quickness, nimbleness, agility, and instincts all factor into this skill.

I would associate mobility with the ability to out run defenders (especially D-linemen), accelerate in short bursts (ie. rolling out to avoid pressure), and run for 1st downs when necessary.

10:29 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I agree on the pocket presence/mobility. Culpepper's probably faster but Russell's footwork and other tools are so good it won't matter. He'll be better than Culpepper

10:31 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


"Ghostraider, there's still the possibility that Al doesn't see the obvious. For example, we drafted SeaBass in the first round. That's my nightmare... another complete melt down."

Of course, Davis doesn't learn from mistakes, we've seen that, to be honest although the case for Russell is absolutely overwhelming (even the draft a QB over my dead body mongers can't find a decent argument this year) - Davis has screwed up so many times it's hard to believe he will finally get it right this time.

That's the conundrum....

Absolute cast iron reason and common sense, an absolute stone bonking obvious pick, who fits exactly what Davis looks for.....yet.....It's Al Davis making the pick and you cannot trust him not to fuck it up.

If this off season is anything like the total disaster from start to finish that last off season was we'll end up with that lineman and HC in diapers.

No, i don't trust Davis with this pick, not 1 iota. I'm trying my damnedest not to get my hopes up.

10:35 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Raider Nate 75 said...

Ghostraider, I don't think Calvin Johnson is better than Dwayne Jarrett. When JaMarcus declares, he will be a lock on the first pick.
What we do with the 2nd Round pick depends on how we address RB. As I said in my last post, the RB field is going to be head above shoulders in '08. If we go after a veteran RB, then we draft a WR in the 2nd round. If we don't, then Michael Bush will be our pick.
I agree with BR that RB is a better position to build around, but I having a QB who makes great decisions, has accuracy in the long ball, has great downfield vision, moves/and has awareness of the pocket well is something that should not be passed on.
My only concern with Russell, that I don't know the answer to, is does he tend to "lock" on the WR he is going to throw to? If so, that may be a trait that will have to be fixed immediately (maybe Gannon could help as QB coach).
We need a leader offensively, and I think Russell would step in that spot nicely.

Whether he's better than Jarrett is up for debate i guess, it's not one that really interests me. I wouldn't pick a WR in the top 20 in any year.

They are the ultimate "find anywhere" position. They are more products of environment, system and supporting cast than any other position in the game IMO.

If we whiff on QB again, then we'd better be drafting AP, or the draft is a total bust already.

QB, or RB nothing else will do - simple as that, if we draft AP, then we should be trying to emulate the Ravens and Steelers teams of recent years, play great defense, run the ball all day, and take the ball and the game out the QB's hands.

I'm not a fan of "waiting till next year" to do anything, who knows what will happen? who knows where you'll be drafting? I don't whiff on a position because next year is supposed to be stacked.

I can't think about the 2nd round at this point, because it's too early, Russell hasn't declared, and im all about that 1st pick at this point. If we get that right, everything else is gravy.

As for Gannon - put those dreams away, HE IS NOT COMING BACK TO THE RAIDERS while ever Davis is in control - NO WAY, he has said time and time and time again he is not interested in coaching in any capacity.

Sorry, bud, but thats the way it is. Gannon is finished as a Raider.

10:45 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


It's started already, just what a i feared an off season like the last one. Rumours are that Lombardi will be fired.

Damn the only functioning brain left in the front office is leaving.

If this is true, what next for an encore?

Arthur back as GM???

Turn the lights out already.

10:59 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

hey gary..... if you knew anything about the game.. a rookie qb does not yell and scream at a potential hall of fame player,that is not leadership,it is suicide....if he did it,all the veterans would lose respect for him faster than moss can quit...

I'd agree with this if we are talking about someone like Tim Brown or something, but MOSS??? Cmon... he and Walter both came to the team at the same time, and I think the veterans would have pulled for a LEADER to get on Moss's loligagging ass... and if they didn't they shouldn't be on the team either. Until the offense finds an actual leader on the field we are looking at 5 wins or less for quite awhile... and if Moss is for some astonishing reason brought back, I would hope the team at least has the common sense to not vote him as team captain (and one has to wonder about how players view Jordan if they chose Moss over him as captain??).

And I think you are ignoring how he gradually got worse every game... to the point he couldn't throw a football through an open barn door by his 7th start.

Walter looks to me like an average back-up QB... if we are putting all our eggs in his basket, I doubt we will see the playoffs again this decade... but hey, I'd love to be proven wrong! That would mean we can use our draft picks elsewhere.. but I am not holding my breathe.

11:33 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

br,once again you are off the mark......... comparing what walter did in the offense to what russell did in a college team and a high powered one at that is ridiculous. did russell have players coming at him from all angles most times he dropped back??? were the players coming at him nfl lineman???? didn't he have time in the pocket on most occasions??? think of it this way,what would russell have done if he was in walter's shoes this year??? any better??? ya think???? come on,just ridiculous..... russell would have been throwing picks,getting sacked and fumbling.... it is what young qb's do in normal circumstances let alone in this offense behind that o-line...what the freak do you expect,did walter have any time to develop???? did the coaches call a game plan that could take some of the weight off his shoulders???? did walter get reps with the first team at all before the week he was to start his first game???? look at it and think... to declare russell the man and walter a bust at this point is a joke.... you talk about deer in the headlights,he had it sometimes,yes,but again ,he essentially is a rookie getting shellshocked...remember gannon getting deer in the headlights,i do and he succeeded,i remember p manning doing it and he still does once and a while... lame reasons to throw him to the curb..get an o-line that can pick up blitzes,get a line that can hold their blocks,get a game plan that can use his attributes instead of his weaknesses and let him go through a preseason with the #1 offense then make judgment. how can you blame walter for this year at all??? that is another ridiculous statement,the kid is a rookie,the coaches had NO CLUE,he had no help..what are you talking about???? you don't blame a kid under those circumstances,you blame the owner,the coaches and the players who dogged it,they all come before the rookie who had no chance to succeed..please,wake up.

11:36 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said... should have been the owner,the coach,the gm or other veteran players that should have jumped on moss,you have to understand there is a pecking order and you need to respect that,if you don't,you will not be accepted by your teammates. who voted moss or appointed moss a team captain??? who let moss slide all year?? it wasn't walter and it wasn't walter's responsibility to make sure moss had his head in the say walter got worse,well so did the whole damn team. if you came out to play week after week in your fist starts in the nfl and had to go through what walter did,then yes,any qb's confidence would start to go down hill,it is normal,you cannot blame walter for that either. these are not excuses,they are plain facts and if you know the game , you would know what i am saying. i'm not saying walter will be good,but damn give the kid a CHANCE before you declare him a waste.many qb's have started slow,to me he showed when he got some time that he could make some plays,don't forget,how many balls did he get dropped on him this season...the all time greats did not get there by playing on a team like what we saw this year,no way,they had help..good coaching,good personnel around them that would catch and block. nope,ain't buying the walter is trash crap,he hasn't even had a chance,too many of you are still thinking like art can stop now,he is gone.

11:50 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm not sure why everyone is talking about Russell as if he hasn't declared, he has.

And, I never usually agree with BR but for anonymous to imply that Walter should be given a pass is a joke! Sure the offense was pathetic, the O-line, play calling and effort, completely agree. However, what do you suggest, we give him another year? What if he does suck? Were back to square one. If he doesn't, then we are in a good spot. It is much better to have two young talented QB's than none.


11:57 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"anonymous" (I'm very new to the web-based comment section, but aren't you supposed to pick a nic or something?)... the only strong disagreement I have with you is that a young QB has a pecking order... NO! He is the guy on the field that has to be the GENERAL... if a general has to sit around looking around wondering what to do, he has already lost the battle.

As far as Walter goes, you may be right, perhaps he had a "perfect storm" against him this year, and he will one day be a fine QB, but I still think the Raiders would be remiss not to bring in a blue-chip QB to make him earn the job. We've been gambling on iffy QB's since Gannon got hurt... let's start bringing in better bets, just to cut the odds.

12:06 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Walter showed absolutely nothing whatsoever. NOTHING. I don't care how bad the situation was, a real QB would have at least made a few plays, Walter didn't make a play in 8 games.

Enough already, lets have a proper QB for once.

Walter is another Gallery, for some the excuses will never run out.

12:09 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

roy,in what way do you mean a "pass". that he is to blame for this year?? and why is that???? because he is supposed to come in and light that offense on fire or even make it respectable??? seems to me you and the others are asking way to much of a qb making his first career starts. how could ANY qb done anything in this offense??? tell me please,i would love to hear it... as far as giving him a shot for next year,depends on what else we can bring in,russell,who knows,he isn't a lock and look at how this organization develops qb's,do you think we should go that route??? or how about another veteran cast off??? or do we trade our first pick for schaub???he isn't a guarantee you have to go with something,the kid had a good college career,he is big and will learn to avoid the rush as he gets experience and confidence behind an at least avg o-line... unless there is a much better solution,we should shore up other positions and give him a shot with a new scheme and a new start. if he shows under some sort of NORMAL circumstances that he isn't going to develop,then toss original point is,don't blame walter,that is just too easy a target,there are bigger problems and reasons why this team has failed the way it is right is funny how right after walter got benched,they changed to a short drop with shorter passes,this would have fit walter more than brooks yet they throw in brooks and change to the short game,just another great decision by the leaders of the team and just another example of how absurd this past season was.

12:13 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

gary,you are wrong,a young qb comes in and DOES NOT START YELLING AT PLAYERS IN HIS SECOND START. any qb that is yelling at other players loses respect real fast ESPECIALLY ONE MAKING HIS SECOND START. that is not what a leader does. pecking order and standing around wondering what to do are 2 very different things,do not mince them together. knowing what to do comes from film and experience,not about being the general and shouting at players. like i said,it was up to the owner,the coaches and veteran players to make moss accountable NOT A QB MAKING HIS SECOND NFL START.

12:23 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

ghost..... so after 8 games in one of the worst ALL TIME offenses,you say enough you remember steve young when he played for tampa???? that was probably the worst offense,very close to this one and it almost RUINED his career because he looked horrible in it,san fran saw he had something,now look,he is in the hall of fame. look at plunkett,played behind one of the worst o-lines in history with the boston patriots,he looked horrible,everyone like you said he was done because he wasn't showing anything and this was 2 YEARS WORTH. think you know how that one turned no way am i comparing walter to those 2 but it proves a point that you cannot judge a qb when he plays behind a poor o-line with a very bad scheme and poor coaching,lucky thing is,it was only 8 games so maybe walter's confidence will not be totally,you would never make as a gm or coach in any sport.funny how you compare him to gallery,how long has gallery been here??? more than 8 games thats for sure.... what position does gallery play??? one that doesn't take the rest of the players on the team to make it work,like the qb position... if the qb has no help as far as the other players on offense,then it will NEVER work for him i don't care who it is and after 8 games..... unreal. gallery is mostly one on one battles,so it is much different.

12:35 PM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

Anon: A few things to consider;

There is a HUGE difference between viewing Walter as a #1 QB and a #2 QB going forward into the 2007 season.

You seem ready to hand over the keys to AW to be our #1. He hasn't earned that right. To think otherwise is foolish.

The Raiders need to identify 1 blue chip QB prospect in the draft(ie. Russell, Brohm) and 1 veteran FA (ie. Huard, Ramsey). Let all 3 compete. Walter should be given the chance to compete for his place on the depth chart.

The examples you gave (Steve Young and Jim Plunkett) are not relevant and here's why: Young and Plunkett were seasoned veterans when they found success (on SF and Oak respectively). The important point that you are forgetting is that both were given opportunities as back-ups. Young had to wait until Montanna left SF for KC. Plunkett was the back up for Pastorinin until Pastorini broke his leg.

And finally ... pick a name or at least sign your name at the end of your post like azraider63 does. This anonymous b.s. is childish and hard to respect. Anything less is uncivilized.

1:18 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


Steve Young and Andrew Walter in the same sentence?

Young always showed ability, Walter shows absolutely nothing. Young could run, he could feel the pass rush, Walter might as well be blindfolded.

Make excuses for butter fingers all you like, the people that can see beyond the tired old "supporting cast" stuff can see Walter doesn't have it.

Pass on a QB just in case Walter doesn't suck?

Good call!

I mentioned Gallery because for some people will never run out of excuses for him, it will be the same with Walter. The clued up had seen enough of Robert Gallery at mid season LAST YEAR, this year simply confirmed how piss poor he actually was, and why he'd never been allowed to protect the QB's blindside before.

I called Gallery a bust way way before it was "acceptable" to do so, and was proved absolutely correct, i heard all the excuses, weathered all the crap about "changing positions" etc and the outcome was still the same.

IMO Andrew Walter doesn't have it. I don't need to see anymore, and history will prove me correct.

If you would like to come back to me on this over the course of the next year or two then show yourself don't hide behind "anon".

PS Steve Young, Jim Plunkett, Peyton Manning, Troy Aikman etc etc etc Andrew Walter is none of these players, he's Andrew Walter - simply quoting examples isn't an argument.

Andrew Walter isn't good enough.


1:27 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Still not declared officially......

Come on man.

1:35 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

My biggest concern with Walter is injury and his arm tiring as the season progresses. This season was an example of that. The more he threw, the more he was skipping passes, under throwing the long ball, or as Gary put it he couldn't hit "the open door of a barn." His arm grew tired through pre-season as well, remember that.
That concerns me big time.
I somewhat agree with BR in questioning how JaMarcus would have faired with this line, and lack of a running game. He is not proven in the NFL, but he has the skills and potential to shine in the NFL, and that is what you draft by. He has the athletic ability comparable to Vince Young, though I think Vince is better. But JaMarcus isn't going to be too far behind.
Bottom line, I don't think it will really matter who is QB if we don't fix our line and running game. But at the same time, we cannot pass on a talent like Russell.

1:45 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

gary,you are wrong,a young qb comes in and DOES NOT START YELLING AT PLAYERS IN HIS SECOND START. any qb that is yelling at other players loses respect real fast ESPECIALLY ONE MAKING HIS SECOND START. that is not what a leader does.

He would if he wanted to let people know whom is in charge... what would you want, a young QB that didn't say a word when the underachieving star receiver didn't make an effort to catch a perfect game-changing pass, or one that has the balls to get in his face? The former is Gannon-like, the latter is Collins-like.

I know which one I'd pick.

1:50 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I wrote: The former is Gannon-like, the latter is Collins-like.

Oops, flip this... lol.

1:52 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

so because you "picked" gallery to be a bust,you damn well must be right with walter..... you may think that,i say you are premature with your assesment,that is the argument here,not about walter being aikman or plunkett.... did you see steve young when he played for tampa??? he looked just like walter,couldn't feel the rush,made bad decisions and got sacked as much as walter,go look back at his stats..he also lost his confidence which will happen to a young qb who is one of the worst offenses in history.... you want another young qb that will take 2 years to get going??? do you want to spend the first overall on a crap shoot??? do you want to bring in a veteran that can fast track his career,to help him understand what is going on sooner??? help him in the film room,what to key on...or would you rather have 2 young guys with one of them wanting to start but on the bench and causing a distraction??? you have to weigh the options,walter's contract would be no where near what we would have to pay a first overall qb...we can trade down,we can go for a rb or o-line and be less expensive and have more immediate impact.... drafting a qb and expecting him to come in and blow us all away doesn't just happen and i really doubt it will happen with russell,just my opinion. i say a good scenario would be to dump brooks and bring in a guy that has a reputation for KNOWING the game and how to prepare and let him work side by side with walter. a good team guy that would accept his role and do all he could to move walter along. then at the end of this next
season if he has shown he will not progress,go for a qb either f.a or draft. use this year to get a rb and o-line through draft and f.a. this way we will have a foundation for the new guy or walter if he shows he can do it.

2:19 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I can't be assed to read that garbled block of junk i know what much anon.


My eyes hurt.


2:47 PM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...

Since Russell played in the Sugar Bowl, I've reviewed film of both his college career and high school. Russell was more seasoned in high school than Walter is now. He wasn't always given time to throw, but he sure as hell knows how to side step the rush. Not only that, he's the type of QB that when he does have to run for it, he gives it his all - going over the top of the defensive line for the touchdown or the first down.

Also, don't forget that we have Walter and Brooks under contract. Walter is here for at least another two years, and Brooks is here for one more year (probably provided he restructures his contract). I have no problem opening up camp for a comptetition between the three. Russell will win it. He's better than Walter and Brooks right now.

3:02 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Russell will win it. He's better than Walter and Brooks right now."

Damn straight he is.

3:32 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


Now four months of agony until Davis farts in our collective face again!!!

3:44 PM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...


You need a QB with more than 8 games under his belt, even if he only winds up 3rd string. Since we already have Brooks, we might as well keep him for another year if we can restructure his contract. Otherwise we take a cap hit, and end up having to sign somebody else.

So Russell declared. I anticipate that if we don't take him at number one, Detroit will swallow him at 2. He likely knows that as well, so I'm thinking he's looking forward to playing for the Raiders. If he didn't want to play for us, he'd play another year in college.

So now, the only thing that stands in the way of Russell being a Raider is the thinking of Al Davis - whatever that is.

I think it all comes down to what Davis has in mind for Moss and/or Porter. If he plans on dumping both, he'll likely go for Johnson. I know that Davis doesn't like Gabriel, so he may be gone.

What I'd do is trade Porter, look for a way to get Moss interested again, and draft Russell. I'd take Porter and my #1 pick in the 2nd Round and trade up for an RB. My aversion to Moss, however, says that he'll screw with Russell's mind by insisting on the "Randy Ratio" in the huddle.

While I've learned to understand how Davis thinks, we don't generally think the same.

4:40 PM  
Blogger RaiderRealist said...

I wish there was a way we could have Kurt Warner mentor JaMarcus Russell without putting him on the field behind our O-line. Warner has shown he can accept his role and show a young QB the ropes a la Leinart. Is Warner still under contract with Arizona? If he's ready to retire he'd make a great QB coach.

5:06 PM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...

Russell is the only QB I've seen since Dan Marino who I think would be capable of starting at QB in his rookie year from the 1st game of the season.

I know Al doesn't like to do this, but I'm hoping he sees what I see. I can, occasionally, spot good talent. I predicted, on these posts, during the preseason that Nhamdi would become a shut down corner. He's well on his way to that.

5:19 PM  
Blogger RaiderRealist said...

Gentlemen, here's some food for draft thought:;_ylt=AkvyET67zNQm_A6a3Nxh4G8cvrYF?slug=jm-prospects010907&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

They've got a list at Yahoo sports on who's declared, who's staying in school, and who's still undecided.

5:20 PM  
Blogger RaiderRealist said...

My preference would be to show both Moss and Porter the door BEFORE THE DRAFT, but most likely one of them will still be here. Who would you tolerate being here next year more, Moss or Porter?

5:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

RaiderRealist said...

My preference would be to show both Moss and Porter the door BEFORE THE DRAFT, but most likely one of them will still be here. Who would you tolerate being here next year more, Moss or Porter?

Porter... especially if Sark is o-coach. Porter's best year hands down was 04' (10 TD's) the year Sark was aboard, so Sark already knows how to use him.

He doesn't strike me as much of a QB-killer as a coach-killer, and Moss is both.

Moss has more trade value.

Moss would eat Russell alive if he struggles early (same as he did with Walter) Porter played fair with COLLINS ferfucksake... lol.

6:31 PM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...


My preference, in sticking with either Porter or Moss would be Moss. Porter's sat for most of the year, and never really established himself in the first place. He still hasn't had that 1000 yard season. Plus Porter finds something to gripe about every year, and I'm kind of getting sick of that. Moss - everything is water off a duck's back. Nothing sticks to him or with him. If he's interested, he'll play. If not, he's alligator arms. Plus, I think we'd take a bigger hit based on Moss' contract.

6:32 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

ahhh ghost,the typical response when you don't have an answer...... try and read it real slow so you can understand might be that it is just over your head... if your eyes are hurting, borrow some glasses or use a couple of coke bottles.

7:10 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Neither..Moss would be happy if we bring in Culpepper but he is still a compleatly un-Physical player who will never give it his all...

Porter is the "Cancerous" Pleague and would count high on our "Cap" value and for what...a Bad Attitude..who has never proven himself...

Trade them the trade the other team picks up their "Cap" value and we are clear of the problems...even if we don't get much for them we get rid of the "Cap" value and are allowed to move on....

PosibleTrades to teams with simmilar problems...

Detroit...MikeWilliams was a 1st rd pick who is not pannibg out for them...

Miami...Culpepper is a HighPriced BenchWarmer...RickyWilliams is a "Drugy" who was out for the year...

I would take any of these guys to get rid of our "CrapPots"...let us deal with something else for a while...and I'm sure there are more guys out there who would be "TradeBait"....send them to Dallas and give the "Tuna" a "heartAttack"..."I Don't Know The Players"...Dallas picks "22" so how much could they get for that pick...they could have the "Best" WR Core on "Paper" in the NFL...."Rots-o-Luck" Baby....


7:19 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

br... i believe we can dump brooks outright,he would not be a cap hit because of his contract structure i believe,he brings nothing to the you want him mentoring walter??? i don't,do you want his attitude on the team?? i don't,we can pick up a f.a. retread with a GOOD ATTITUDE and with some leadership ability to SIT ON THE BENCH,keeping brooks is just a waste of a roster spot....moss has stated he wants out,he doesn't want to spend a couple more years waiting for a qb to develop,we keep him and his attitude is another MINUS..... if you remember,there were not many if any who thought marino was going to be the next best thing coming out of was a suprise that he came to miami and performed the way he did,so if you called marino to be a great qb coming out of college... i highly doubt that and what is it with russell ,who only weeks ago wasn't even being mentioned in the same breath as quinn on this site or any site, now you and all are annointing him the next marino...again,you don't inspire confidence with me in what you write propaganda as if it is gospel,it shows you really don't know and you are trying to convince that you do.... russell is a crap shoot,he is not a sure thing and if we pick him first overall,he will cost a big cap hit for years to think about that before you all jump on his wagon,can we really afford to wrap all that cap money into a crap shoot???? i say yes if the players is as close to a lock as you can get,but russell is not that,his quote about being paid as much as possible and rumors of his work ethic already throws in ???????.

8:10 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

BlandaRocked said...

I'm kind of getting sick of that. Moss - everything is water off a duck's back. Nothing sticks to him or with him. If he's interested, he'll play. If not, he's alligator arms.

I think he's damaged goods. He's alligator armed EVERYTHING since he got pummeled by SD two years ago... he's gun shy now, and I don't think he has the mental capacity to recover from it. What made him stand out from other receivers used to be his ability to get above the defenders to bring the ball down.. he no longer does this... so now he is just another fast guy. We can bring back James Jett if we need a fast guy that can't catch.

I agree that both should go, but I still would rather have Porter.. if nothing else he wont be giving embarrassing interviews every week.

8:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

panty ,you are the last "person" to be calling anyone "shit for brains" you and br are on record as being the worst for "facts " on this site... you are always does that feel???? take a look in the mirror before calling others names..when you PROVE that you KNOW what you are writing about,fine,until then you are just a screw ball trying to cover up your lack of knowledge with your rhymin and flamin. "juststatingthefactsjack".

9:39 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

People, people. What did we learn from the Bowl game Monday night ??

DEFENSE, win championships.

You saw how Florida shut down Smith.
Go back and look at how they shut down the great Damarcus Russell this year. 3 picks. How do you like that !!!

The Raiders defense is good, but needs to get better, especially against the run.

That's why I think they would benefit more from trading down a few spots, getting extra picks, and taking Michigan DT Alan Branch.

They could still possibly get QB Brian Brohm later on. If not, we can still take a great RB, which is a deep position in this draft, and always sign a FA, Qb like Chris Simms in the off season.

I wish the people that love this Russell kid so much, would have shown the same love for Lienart last year.
We might not be having this conversation right now.

9:40 PM  
Blogger RaiderRealist said...


Yes, Jamarcus Russell did throw 3 INTs against the Florida, who went on to win the National Title. If I'm not mistaken, I saw Peyton Manning throw 3INTs against the Chiefs, a team which let's face it lucked into the playoffs.

Now here's another interesting tidbit. Peyton Manning threw more INTs against the Chiefs last weekend than either Aaron Brooks or Andrew Walter. Brooks threw one pick against KC in Game One, Walter threw 2 picks in Game Two. Now with that information, would you rather have Brooks or Walter over Peyton Manning? He was a number one pick in 1998 as I recall, and I seriously doubt the folks in Indy are wishing they traded down for more picks at this point in time.

The point is, there are no guarantees in the draft. We took Gallery the last time we had a pick this high, and at the time all the experts said it was a great pick. Well, here it is three years later, and if we had it to do again, would anyone want to take Gallery with that pick?

Yes, there is a lot of risk involved with taking Russell with that pick. That's a lot of money. There is also the risk of not getting Russell or Brohm if we trade down. If he's as good as you think he is, what's to stop some other team from taking him just one spot in front of us?

Hopefully, we'll never again be in this predicament. But we're here now, and if we've got the first pick, why not be bold, take a chance and draft Russell? Suppose we draft Brohm and he turns out to be a bust, would it matter more to you that we lost 2nd or 3rd round money or that we lost, period?

If we're going to roll the dice, let's go for broke. We've played it safe the last few years(I too wanted Leinart) and what has it gotten us? We have the #4 defense and the #1 pick in the draft. How many games that we lost this year were winnable if only we had an offense that was halfway decent? Matt Leinart is gone, do we want to let Russell go by too? Russell or Brohm, I'll support whomever we pick in the draft, just as I will respect your opinion.

3:04 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

raiderrealist said:
"My preference would be to show both Moss and Porter the door BEFORE THE DRAFT, but most likely one of them will still be here. Who would you tolerate being here next year more, Moss or Porter?"

I wouldn't mind this either. But, if this happens, it is going to have to happen by trading them both. The Raiders will lose $10+million (against the cap) if they cut both before June 1st. It is $4+million (not against the cap)after June 1st. I think if we have to cut them after June 1st, it would be the ultimate "SCREW YOU" from Al Davis, because they won't have a lot of time to get themselves acquainted with another team; which would be well deserving on both of them for the "SCREW YOU" attitudes in performance (or lack thereof) they've given to the Nation.
Hey JaMarcus, I'll be your agent, and I will get you signed with the Raiders for some good $$$$.
BR, even though Brooks is "technically" under contract for one more year, it is an option year; which means his contract does not have to be picked up.
If we need a "vet" QB to groom JaMarcus or Walter, then I'll take Warner, Leftwich, or even Jeff George.
I've said it before, and I say it again too. I don't think we've seen everything from Walter; but there is nothing wrong with some healthy competition to make him work hard.
My concerns with Walter is prone to injury, and his arm seems to tire out as the season progresses. It's as if he gets tennis elbow.
My concerns with JaMarcus is, does he stare his receiver down before he throws to him? If so, this is going to be some easy picks for LB, CB, and Safeties. The good news about it though, is that it is an easy fix. Unlike trying to teach someone "pocket awareness" or "moving with the pocket".

6:13 AM  
Blogger nyraider said...

BR: getting Moss interested again may be as simple as drafting JaMarcus Russell. Regarding WRs, I say we offer both Moss and Porter in trade, and let one or both go. However, my preference is to keep Porter. Porter’s attitude will almost certainly remain in check (no way he’s that dumb), and the players don’t have a problem with him (only Shell and Freddy B.... who should also be shown the door upstairs).

Good point Raider Rick. Is Al ready to pay JaMarcus first-pick, QB money?

6:25 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Moss's skills have seriously deteriorated and he's lazy

Porter's in his prime, but has to be managed, but when he's in the game he competes and makes plays

Who would you rather have?

6:30 AM  
Blogger StickUm25 said...

That's point to be considered, the trading of Moss or Porter. Could we trade Moss for Ricky Williams? Both turn 30 this year, and Moss would be reunited with Culpepper. What other options are there? It seems the consensus is that neither would bring a first round pick, but can we pick up a player who will solidify the ground game, either a RB or OL? You generally don't see a skill player traded for someone who works in the trenches, but we shouldn't rule it out.

6:55 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said... you really want ricky williams??? come on,the guy won't even last a season and he is done like dinner...... you guys say get rid of moss and porter,who will the takers be??? look at moss' contract,who will take a selfish player and a major attitude problem with diminishing skills and a big fat contract????? porter,art pretty much screwed us in getting anything for him by making him sit a WHOLE SEASON and by making him another MAJOR ATTITUDE cut them would be a major cap hit that we cannot afford....if you ask me,we are stuck with those 2.

7:27 AM  
Blogger Raider Take said...

Please, not Jim Fassel!

I thought it was funny when the Raider Image sent me an email the other day, boasting about a sale on jerseys. After linking through, I was greeted by jerseys and photos of several Raiders stars - including Jerry Porter! A more realistic item would be Jerry Porter street clothes. I just think it's funny that they're marketing a guy who was banished to the pine for the entire year.

8:44 AM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...

Regarding the Moss or Porter debate, I'd prefer to see both of them go, but that may not be feasable. One doesn't want to cut one's nose off to spite one's face. I'd admit that part of the reason I'd prefer to see Porter go is that I don't want Shell to be shown that kind of disrespect by the organization. I do, however, understand that business is business.

But Moss has shown the most (careerwise), and has the most potential when he actually makes the effort. That's the problem, isn't it? How do we get either one of these two to actually make an effort?

8:53 AM  
Blogger nyraider said...

Anon 7:27 said: “you guys say get rid of moss and porter, who will the takers be??? look at moss' contract, who will take a selfish player and a major attitude problem with diminishing skills and a big fat contract?????

While I don’t have a specific answer, I believe there will be interest in both. Look, Dallas grabbed T.O. and what did he do? He dropped twice as many passes as Moss. And nobody is buying into Porter as having a major attitude. As it turns out, Porter was proven right about Walsh, and Shell just never gave him a chance. I hope no other team does want him and he comes back and catches 100 passes from JaMarcus Russell.

The real problem, as I see it, and as you imply, is contractual. We simply can’t afford to dump both and accelerate their bonus monies. How will we pay for JaMarcus?

BTW, Anon, get a handle. It’s one thing to post on the fly, but you’re chiming in on about every other exchange. Take a second and provide us all with a little courtesy... Pick a name!

9:21 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Moss for Ricky Williams? Williams has been out of the League for a year, playing up in Canada. The reason is because he cannot get off the hippy lettuce.
Even if he wants to come back to the NFL, he has to get League approval, and that is likely not going to happen. Even if it does, the Dolphins will do him like the Raiders are doing to Porter; they would want Ricky to front $8 million he received in signing bonuses.
Let's consider some serious trade proposals for Moss. First, Moss to Cleveland for Winslow and Nat Dorsey (T). Second, Moss to Washington for TJ Duckett (RB), and Cornelius Griffin (DT).
Third, Moss to St Louis for Stephen Davis/or Dominique Byrd and Jimmy Kennedy (DT).
Finally, Moss back to Minnesota for a 3rd Round pick and Pat Williams (DT)

9:26 AM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...

raider nate:

I'm thinking we can get more value from either a Moss or Porter trade if we package them with a lower draft pick for a high draft pick. For instance, our fourth or third pick and Moss for a high 1st round pick. With that extra high first rounder, after pulling the trigger on Russell, we can grab a RB or a WR.

9:48 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

ahhh ghost,the typical response when you don't have an answer...... try and read it real slow so you can understand might be that it is just over your head... if your eyes are hurting, borrow some glasses or use a couple of coke bottles.

7:10 PM

Nah, i just cannot be bothered to trawl through your illiterate stream of consciousness.

I really didn't have the time, interest, or the inclination to wade through that litany of unconnected, unpunctuated, 8th grade-esque sentences presented in a style that put one in mind of a monkey with a selection of crayons.

Go back to school you illiterate baboon.

10:58 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

raider00 said,
"You saw how Florida shut down Smith.
Go back and look at how they shut down the great Damarcus Russell this year. 3 picks. How do you like that !!!

The Raiders defense is good, but needs to get better, especially against the run.

That's why I think they would benefit more from trading down a few spots, getting extra picks, and taking Michigan DT Alan Branch.

They could still possibly get QB Brian Brohm later on. If not, we can still take a great RB, which is a deep position in this draft, and always sign a FA, Qb like Chris Simms in the off season."

Let's start with Defense. Good idea. We have a good defense that needs help with the run, but you know what, drafting a DT first isn't going to get us to the Super Bowl with our current offense. What good is it going to do us, to stop the run and pass, have our opponents consistently punt the ball to a puke offense, that will return the favor/ I'll tell ya, it will tire out our awesome defense. Why get a DT with the first pick, when we could get Ted Washington back for less? Do you know he didn't want to leave, but had to because he was a cap casualty?
Why don't we use our picks for what we need the most, OFFENSE! JRuss had a bad game against Florida, but who didn't this year?
It's funny how you mentioned his loss to the Gators, but in his 7-3 loss to Auburn (another good defensive team), he went 20 for 35, with 269 yards passing, 0 INT's, and had a TD taken away.
Trading down is not an option here, we cannot afford to do so if we are wanting to win now. Then to trade down for a DT? If we did that, we may as well draft another Kicker, or draft another DB! That is just plain stupid. If you want to trade down, it better be to pick up an impressive player, not a scrub DT; especially when we could draft someone of equal value in later rounds.
I'm not sold on Brohm, I think he is a risk like Quinn. Chris Simms has resigned with the Bucs, and I wouldn't want his dumbass on our team, and neither would his father Phillip.
What good would Leinart have done for us? He was accurate, scary accurate with his passes, and that is what I loved about him; but was questionable with long ball and durability. He would've been pummelled this last season like Walter. I think we still have this conversation with Leinart. So quit whining about not taking him last year, and look at what we have now.
JaMarcus is an accurate passer, and accurate with the long ball. He is stronger, and more durable than Leinart.
Even if we draft JaMarcus, we could still get a decent back if we don't get one in FA. That is Michael Bush. Yes he didn't play this past season, because he was injured in the first game, but he is healthy, and will be a great steal with the #2 pick if we don't get a FA RB. I'd prefer to get a FA RB, or trade for a Vet RB, and draft a RB next year.

11:58 AM  
Blogger StickUm25 said...

I only mention Williams as Miami being a potential trading partner. I’d take him over any RB we could get in the 3rd round, as that is what folks have been saying we’d get for Moss. And while I loathe Porter’s antics, I’ve never seen him dog it on the field the way Randy did, so I think he’s the one that has to go.

Any trade we make is going to be on the potential of Moss, rather than what he has done lately. Even if he gets happy next year, I think he’s lost that gear that made him special. When he did put forth the effort I didn’t see him blowing the doors off anyone the way he did in the past. As a result, I think we’ll be fairly limited in what we can get for him. The best option I’ve seen so far is packaging him with a middle round pick to get something in the first round. If we can get into the middle part of the first round there should be a decent RB or WR, whether we take Russell or not.

12:57 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Look here folks......

We need "2" QB's not just one. Yes, Tui is gone and so is Brooks from his roster bonus of 5mil. So we have Walter and Two open spots to fill......Now we get a cheap recycle or someone like Leftwich who can vie for the first spot, then draft a stud like Russell. Do we even have the cap room.? Just some more crap to ponder until Al decides to chose our picks.........UGGGGHH!

1:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Raider Greg, I don't think "Cap room" is going to be that much of an issue. Ridding ourselves of Porter, Moss, Walker, Sims, Brooks, LaMont, Tyrone Poole, Derrick Gibson, ReShard Lee, and a handful of scrubs; coupled along with losing Tui to free agency; I think we can make "cap room" space.
I'd like to see others gone too (Whitted, Morant, Williams, etc), but don't think that will happen.
With cuts, and signings it always seems to balance out.

1:29 PM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...

As for the QBs, there is another option if we truly want to gamble. Just keep two. Let Russell and Walter battle it out in camp, and use Curry as the emergency QB. Usually, if you get down to the #3 you're screwed anyway.

Teams have done this in the past. For the Raiders, Ray Guy occasionally served as an emergency back up. Using a starting WR has been done before as well. Bill Walsh used Soloman for an emergency QB in his first year at SF.

1:35 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


You can slant stats in any direction to make a point.

Of course I know, P. Manning is far better than both Brooks, & Walter, despite the difference in picks thrown against KC.

Manning, & Brooks have a long body of work to look at, and compare.

It's different with a young Qb coming out of college. It's all a vague guessing game.
Isn't one of the big knocks on Brady Quinn that he played so poorly in big games against quality teams ??
Why not hold Russell to the same standard ??

RaiderNate 75,

I'm not crazy enough to think that drafting Alan Branch makes us a Super Bowl contender.

But if you look at Chicago, it is possible to have a dominant D, and weak O, and still win 12 games.
The Raiders are much closer to having a dominant D, than O.

With my plan, the Raiders end up with DT Branch, Qb Brohm, or Simms, plus a RB, plus extra picks to fix the 0-line.

If they hold the pick and take Russell, it's like putting all the eggs in one basket.

The Raiders aren't one Qb away from the SB either.

1:40 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

oh booo hoooo,ghost called me a grade 4 baboon,booo hooo....that is a sign of a weak mind,can't answer a question so he has to start calling names... who is the little kid??? welll ,this isn't an english class if you haven't's a freakin message board,if you don't like the way i write ,to bad,answer a question without the name calling,YOU then won't look like the monkey or the baboon...... just admit it,it takes to much brain power for you to understand what i wrote and you just don't have it,so you cover it up by calling me names and trying to degrade me..oldest trick in the book and one that is used by someone with low intelligence....

1:42 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If we really need a third stringer too, we could always go NFL Europe. Reggie Robertson is a QB that represents the Raiders overseas. Just a thought too.

1:49 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Raider00 said,
"But if you look at Chicago, it is possible to have a dominant D, and weak O, and still win 12 games.
The Raiders are much closer to having a dominant D, than O.

With my plan, the Raiders end up with DT Branch, Qb Brohm, or Simms, plus a RB, plus extra picks to fix the 0-line."

Chicago's offense was tied for 2nd in the League with the Colts in Scoring Offense, averaging 26.7 points per game. Whereas the Raiders were DEAD LAST with an average of 10.5 points per game. So don't give me your "The Bears are winning with Defense, and a crappy offense" argument, because your full of $#it!
QB is a QUESTION MARK on our team. It doesn't solve all of our Offensive voids, but it's a pretty big start. So is RB and O-line. Those are the 3 areas we need help on immediately.
Again, why settle for a risk at QB with Brohm? Did you not read my last take about Simms already resigned with Tampa? Even if he was available, what makes you think that Simms is any better than Walter? They are pretty much the same QB. So I ask the question again, why settle for risks at QB, when you can get a good QB? Why bulk up a D with your first pick, when you can get a similar player in later rounds?
Bro, seriously, I know you mean well, but you're full of crap. Defense alone doesn't win games. Yes, we can bulk up our defense with a DT, but in later rounds (4 round and down). We need to address our offense to make them a contender like the defense. We can do that in steps, QB, RB, and Oline.
Put the bong down.

2:06 PM  
Blogger AZRaider63 said...


If we were to only carry two QB's like you suggested, what position would be best to carry the extra body IYO? RB? What would a team benifit from that personell decision? I don't disagree with you, just curious.

P.S. I remember watching that 40Whiner game with Solomon at QB. He didn't play that bad either. It was a little weird watching a #88 under center.


2:10 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

jack....didn't we just go through this ,this year?? where we get another retread and annoint him the starter and say that walter has to stand on the sideline and earn his position. if you say we can't give the keys to walter because he hasn't earned it,how can you say that if we draft a guy and give the keys to him that he has earned it???........... how do you earn a position standing on the sideline??? how do you gain experience standing on the sideline??? in todays nfl ,if you want to develop a qb,you have to put him in early and let him develop,take your lumps and let the team build around, he has a good college career and we chose him in the 3rd round...why did we choose him if we didn't want him to be the starter on this team???? does it make sense to draft the kid,throw him into the worst conditions possible for 8 games and because he doesn't have a qb rating over 80,we should just throw in the towel on him and say we need to pick another "prospect" to come in and start???? does that make sense??? or do you give the kid the keys for this year coming because what other options are there??? ....draft a kid that will be hit or miss because there isn't a sure thing at the qb position to draft this year and throw him in there??? what is the difference??? because of all the experts that are claiming walter is a bust because of 8 games in one of the worst offenses in history??? wow,that is some assesment period............. as far as the steve young reference,he played in the wfl,big deal,he played for the bucs when they sucked as bad as we do right now....his performance on that team was horrible,he was run out of town...this is what the walter haters are doing right now,thet want to throw a guy that hasn't had a chance to prove himself to the curb,when in actuallity he could be a decent qb ,one that could be as good as any qb coming up in the draft........ we have many needs,a qb first overall is going to demand big cap room and money upfront,do you want to risk that on a qb coming out this year?? if you haven't noticed the group coming out is not a strong one...... so what do we do????? start another retread???? i say try and develop what we have,give the kid a REAL chance to see if he has it,what do we have to lose??? we aren't going to the playoffs next year anyway,build a team and do it cost effective. sinking a bunch of dough into a first round qb in a weak class,makes no sense to me...... ok,all you whiners who know who i am anyway

it's jones.... there you happy?? it is JONES.

2:15 PM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...


There was a question about Russell's work ethic (and his leadership), but it all came from one source. The source was Chris Landry, a scout who works for 11 NFL teams. He says he met Russell once, and it didn't seem that Russell was very football smart.

This is likely an example of why the Raiders don't use scouting combines. When you want to know about someone's work ethic, ask their coaches. When you want to know about someone's leadership ability, ask their teamates. All have nothing but praise for Russell. When you watch him on film, you see his mind work, and you see him make his reads. At the same time, he's not afraid to use his instincts - and usually does so with great success.

Apart from all of that, I look at it this way. The college post season bowl games bear the greatest impact on any QB's future NFL career. One game will literally raise them to the top of the class, or keep them mired somewhere in the middle. Brady Quinn had a shot to send him to the top, but when the chips were down played like an also ran. Same with Smith.

Russell wasn't on a lot of people's radar at the beginning of this season because he was a junior, but he was already named as the guy to beat out for the Heisman in 2007. When he had his moment in the sun, he shined like a new penny.

2:18 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

RaiderNate 75,

I think it's your stats that are full of S#*t !!!

Do you really think Chicago has a great offense ??
Do you know there getting ready to bench their Qb ??

Chicago's D gave their offense a short field all season.
Plus, they had great ST's.

Come on, watch the games !!!!!!!

2:18 PM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...


I don't think it's a good idea to use Curry as a number 3. I only suggested the possibility. The only time I think you can justify doing something like that is if you can't afford the cap room. The Raiders aren't going to have that problem because of the large cap increase this year.

We also have a pretty good number of highly paid players who have never panned out. We don't have to release them out right, but we ought to be able restructure their contracts.

2:25 PM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...


I don't know the specific teams he works for. All I know is that he reports to 11 of them. This means he works for a scouting outfit whose job it is to advise the teams who subscribe to their service. Landry is pushing Brady Quinn hard for number one, but says teams should avoid Russell through the top twenty.

My feeling is that if you take the QB job as a junior in the Spring prior to the season, and then work your way up to a potential top five pick in your junior year (by blowing away the QB who was the popular #1 pick), you got there by hard work, not just talent.

3:17 PM  
Blogger RaiderRealist said...


Isn't a bowl game the equivalent of a playoff game? How many bowl games has Quinn won? 0. Russell has played well in arguably the best conference in all of college football. He's faced stiff competition and succeeded.

Brohm has done well also, but is the Big East the SEC? I think not. We'll see come draft day, and with Al Davis anything can happen.

4:01 PM  
Blogger RaiderRealist said...


Remember what they said about Vinc Young last year? I seriously doubt Tennessee is worried about his throwing style or his Wonderlic score right now, huh?

4:07 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

oh booo hoooo,ghost called me a grade 4 baboon,booo hooo....that is a sign of a weak mind,can't answer a question so he has to start calling names... who is the little kid??? welll ,this isn't an english class if you haven't's a freakin message board,if you don't like the way i write ,to bad,answer a question without the name calling,YOU then won't look like the monkey or the baboon...... just admit it,it takes to much brain power for you to understand what i wrote and you just don't have it,so you cover it up by calling me names and trying to degrade me..oldest trick in the book and one that is used by someone with low intelligence....

You and "PANTIES OVER MY HEAD RAIDER" should start a support group for illiterate chimps.

I won't have a back and forth with people who haven't the common courtesy to make their ramblings cogent to anyone with at least a modicum of education.

With debate, the onus is on the individual to make their thoughts easy to interpret for the listener, not for the listener to try and navigate round the canyons of the authours mind to try and make sense of garbled illiterate nonsense.

It isn't an English class, and you would know, as you have clearly never attended one.

4:38 PM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...

In prior drafts (I admit I wasn't big on Leinart), I wanted to see the Raiders pull the trigger on Rothlesberger, Rivers, and Cutler. But I knew that Al wouldn't, prefering to find the magic in free agency.

A franchise QB isn't a necessity. Journeyman QBs have made and won the Super Bowl. Still, with the Raiders currently being alone at the bottom of the NFL, the Raiders are in a special position. If Al plays his cards right, he can have his cake and eat it too. We have highly touted players we want to trade, and the very first pick in every round. There is absolutely no reason that we can't have both JR and a quality WR or RB from this draft. Especially since the draft, this year, is loaded with WR and RB talent.

Passing on JR would indicate a failed draft, because it would mean that we only obtained half of what we are capable of obtaining.

4:52 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


I literally have no idea what the hell you are talking about, and i have no idea why on earth you should put my name in some sort on long running argument you have with other people.

If you are going to name check me, then make it understandable to members of the outside World.

Not least of all me.

This is football talk, not a forum for you to put your rhymes onto and expect people to understand them.

I haven't faintest idea of the "slang" terminology you are using, nor to i wish to be educated in it.

I could use my own "lingo" and you would'nt understand that either.

I use plain English devoid of colloquial terminology so people from around the World can understand what i am saying.

Anon was simply to fucking lazy to make himself understood, don't fall into that trap.

5:09 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I still hold out judgement on most of our offensive players simply because they were not playing in a system that had a modicum of a chance to be successful in today's NFL. Al's old shitty system. Now, Al has learned and absolutely will be running something modern now. I still think Moss can be a great player... he knew that Shell & crew were bringing a minor league scheme to the table and he called it that. So did Porter... he shit on the system back in training camp. They were right. The system was UGLY and had no chance. Walsh has no business in the NFL. That was one UGLY offensive strategy. Yet, I'm okay with Moss saying it because the guy's earned it and was once the best in the league at his position. We have to take a chance on him. I can remember the vikes throwing it to him with three cowboys draped on him and he was still killing 'em. Porter? Fuck that. Porter is TO without the production. Who needs that? Cart his ass and one of those two 5th rd picks to someone for a third rounder.
Walter? No. No more unathletic, baseball pitchers posing as QB's. If you can't audible at least be athletic. He none of the above. He just looked weak to me.
The O line: Let 'em play in a real scheme. Give 'em a chance. The MCneal LT rookie at San Diego... he's in the pro bowl, right? C'mon! It's all scheme.

I agree with Calico and the others that want Russell. I've watched a lot of Russell. He is a very interesting talent. True, I've have seen him throw picks and have bad games. But I have seen him develope. And I have seen some really amazing things from him. Darts! I saw him throw a twenty yard strike in '05 to win the game in raucous Bryant Denny stadium... sending the tide fans to their first loss last year. The place was rocking and bama was like 10-0, and #2 in the nation at the time and Demeco Ryans was flying around killing people for bama(who I told you all was the best LB in last year's draft, better than that white kid from OSU that Green Bay took... now Demeco is defensive rookie of the year!) And Russell rolled around and ended that game with a rope to the end zone. The whole stadium turned into a library in a flash. You could hear a damn pin drop.

There's no question anyone we pick could end up a bust. And any QB we put back there IS GOING TO BE A BUST UNLESS WE COMMIT TO BEING A RUN FIRST FOOTBALL TEAM. Did y'all hear what Petrino said after expalining why he didn't take the Oakland job last year? Petrino said that to win in football you have to be able to run, and you have to be able run in the 4th quarter. That's what wins games (think San Diego wearing our ass out late in the games)
I still say trade rds 2-7 for that #2 overall pick. Take Russell and Peterson. When you're the laughingstock you gotta do something bold. We need a great young runner and we also need what the future of QB in the nfl is fast becoming: the linebacker sized athlete that can run and pass like a bionic man. It's the latest rage. Everyone's gotta have one. The brady's and manning's are rare... guys that are so smart they can win by changing the play at the line. Very rare.
No, we need the next Vince Young. Take a chance.
Here's another player to watch out for: Danny Ware - RB Georgia. He's coming out early. He's been sharing time with two other good backs. He's solid and could probably be grabbed with whatever Porter could get us in a trade (2nd or 3rd rd). He's a hidden gem.
Here's hoping we also land a coach that understands that running the ball is the key to OLINE success and offensive success overall.

5:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

sixptstar...back you for what???? to jabber with morons??? who cares,just read there posts,they know nothing of the game ,that is why they have to attack you and is out of fear,you are a threat to their limited intelligence and this is how they respond,by trying to belittle and act like THEY know it all when their track record is the worst on the site... i mean just look at panty...oooo there is a mole,art is the man ,at the beginning of the year he was saying how great brooks was and now he preaches like he knew all along that brooks was pathetic.... you can't argue or reason with people like this,they spin in circles,flip flop on everything,prove over and over that they don't know a damn thing about football but continue to post like THEY are an expert... just look at panty,he says he NEVER% reads what the press says and then he posts on the last thread how he read some articles on russell and how great he is and this is where he gets his info on russell...waste of time,i know what i know and i know what they don't,so it doesn't mean a damn thing...... just look at panties last post,is this a guy of sound mind????? maybe in his own book but in the real world ,he is a crack job.... no reasoning or ability to have a SANE argument with these types..let them think they are superior because the can rhyme or call you names...good for them,bottom line is they don't know jack.

5:24 PM  
Blogger nyraider said...

Anon 2:15 (aka Jones): if what you say is true that we shouldn’t draft another QB for the sake of developing our own young prospect, then, by extension, the Bolts shouldn’t have drafted Philip Rivers (via trade for Manning) when they had a prospect in Drew Brees. Right?

I don’t think anyone is saying Walter is a bust. But, where’s the proof he’s our QB? We need insurance, and insurance like Russell doesn’t come along very often... never for some teams.

If Walter competes and wins the QB job in training camp, nobody here is going argue with playing him. But let’s not just hand him the job!

5:34 PM  
Blogger Raider Take said...

As much as I might be amused by the colorful debate that has erupted here, I fear that Raider Take is about to turn into the Jerry Springer Show, with flying chairs, chimpanzees swinging from the rafters and panties cascading onto the stage.

The volume of commentary here is amazing, and I'm honored by all of your takes. I learn a hell of a lot reading them. I understand that passions run high here, that's what's so great about Raiders fans.

But let's all make an effort to veer away from the personal stuff, which might turn off newcomers who otherwise might be inspired to join the discussion. Thanks!

6:10 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Raiders aren't going to have that problem because of the large cap increase this year.

Good point, and the increased cap might make it easier to trade Moss.

He does put asses in the seats (with the exception of last year, I'd bet he has played in front of 95% sellouts... before he came to Minn, I used to walk up and buy tickets from scalpers for half-price an hour before game time).

Maybe we CAN still get our first rounder back?

6:38 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

ny,you take 1 example,one that doesn't even come close to what we have,then make out like this is the rule..... just because rivers was taken by san diego while they had brees,who cares,it is not relevant to us. they were way under the cap,they didn't have all the holes to fill we do,they obviously did not believe in brees.... you say where is the proof that walter is our qb,i'll ask you,where is the proof that anyone that we might draft in this class is our qb???? there is none,that is why you play them and try to get them to develop,it does not happen while they stand on the sideline,look at palmer,look at most of the young qb's in the league,they are put in in their first or second year if their team believes in them and they let them learn...... they learn and develop by playing,not standing on the sidelines..... rivers is still making mistakes and he will continue,it is the learning process. if he was on our team,what do you think would of happened???? he probably would not have done much better if better than walter..... thing is,you draft a qb this year and you either sit HIM on the bench and play WHO???? walter???? or you have to throw the new guy in and try to let HIM you are telling me it is a better idea to throw a ton of cash at a qb that is not a given to be good and you toss walter to the side and give up on him..... or you get a f.a. qb retread that we have been doing for ever and try to win that way......or,you keep the young qb we have now,who is much cheaper and has potential,try and develop him and give him confidence by telling him he is the starter and we are willing to go through some growing pains, just like we would if we selected a qb in the draft,then build up other positions in the draft. the pool isn't deep,no one is a lock,why is it you all think that russell is God all of a sudden??? that he will come in and light it up??? i mean there is talk of a wr going before him,does this sound like he is a franchise qb???? no,he is a risk and will be a major mistake if he doesn't work out and are stuck with his contract for 4 years.... you don't draft a qb first overall for INSURANCE,he will either be the franchise qb or nothing...... as far as others saying walter is a bust,go look back at the posts,ghost has said already he has seen enough after 8 games in the worst offense in years...... he flat out calls him a bust and there are others....... so many last year said walter doesn't deserve to start because brooks has earned it and walter hasn't....sorry,again,those days are gone,you draft a kid you want,you put him in early and you let him develop with playing time,it is happening all over the league and thats what you have to do with a league that has a salary cap. you can't waste 2 or 3 years leaving a guy on the bench ,he needs to play.....give walter a PROPER opportunity and see what he can do,if he falls flat,we get a qb next year because if he does fall flat we will have another high pick next year,use this year to get depth on the o-line ,te and rb. this will be the foundation on offense we need ,the foundation we have now gives no support to the qb.... JONES.

7:09 PM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

Anon aka "Jones" - Yes, I'm much happier. Thank you for joining the grown ups table by being accountable for what you write and signing in. Much appreciated.

If you read my entire post, by no means did I say that we should hand the keys to a draftee or FA while Walter stands idly on the sidelines. This is what I said:

"The Raiders need to identify 1 blue chip QB prospect in the draft(ie. Russell, Brohm) and 1 veteran FA (ie. Huard, Ramsey). Let all 3 compete. Walter should be given the chance to compete for his place on the depth chart."

Now. Read the above carefully "Jones" before you put words in my mouth.

Clearly it says that there needs to be a competition for each spot on the depth chart #1-#3.

How is this accomplished you might ask? The depth chart slots are fluid based on performance. The competition starts with training camp, practices, exhibition games, and finally, the regular season.

On most NFL teams there is a clear cut #1. In the example I gave where there is a veteran FA, a blue-chip draftee, and Walter there are a number of different scenarios that could play out.

It would depend on the coaching staff, the offensive system, the talent of each QB, BUT most importantly, the competition is ultimately dictated by one thing and one thing alone...performance.

But make no mistake. In my opinion, if we draft Russell he will earn the #1 QB role by the end of exhibition season. Is this throwing in the towell on Walter? Absolutely not. If Walter steps up and plays well in the opportunities that he is given, he will make the final decision that much more difficult.

Finally, I'm just curious about your opinion on Walter. What do you see in him? Further, what skill, ability, or attribute of Walter do feel is better than Russell? In what respect does Walter outshine Russell? How would the Raiders have a better chance to succeed with Walter under center vice Russell? Am I missing something? I have nothing against Walter but I think he is no better than a poor man's version of Collins. Knowing that our O-line is still a work in progress, Walter's immobility and poor pocket awareness is a recipe for failure.

7:29 PM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

BlandaRocked: I agree with you when you said ..."When you want to know about someone's work ethic, ask their coaches"

This is what LSU Head Coach Les Miles said about JaMarcus Russell:

“We are going to miss this man as a signal caller, as a guy that throws passes and as a QB. We are going to miss him more as a person. He is a tremendous leader and a quality man. Those shoes are going to be harder to fill than the ability to throw it deep and make a great play.”

LSU had the following post about JaMarcus Russell:

"Russell established a reputation during his college career as a quarterback who thrived in situations where the Tigers found themselves down late in the game. Russell engineered eight fourth quarter or overtime comeback victories with the Tigers, including six times when LSU put points on the board with less than two minutes left to either win the game or extend the contest to overtime."

A tremendous leader...a quality amazing talent...a QB who thrives under pressure...the comeback winning ability.

To me this sounds like a franchise type QB to build your hopes around.

8:08 PM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

Take it for what it is worth but Jason Cole @ Yahoo Sports

posted the following:

"Speaking of Davis and the Raiders, the same two sources indicated that Davis remains committed to keeping malcontent wide receiver Randy Moss and Jerry Porter unless he gets a huge price in trade. Davis remains fearful that either of the players will go elsewhere and play well again."

Although I personally want Moss & Porter shipped out, this makes sense to me. I just don't see Al trading (or releasing) Moss/Porter without gettting fair market value.

8:17 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

gee thanks jack,for letting me be a grown up just like you,now you know my fictious name,wow,that is so much more grown up,give it a rest....what is it with people on this board and their attitudes like they are better than the next for whatever reason??? does it make YOU feel like a grown up???? you ask what is the difference between walter and many millions???? you want to use a #1 pick on a qb that is not a proven " blue chip" and set us up to use a ton of cap space on a qb that is not a blue chip... i don't care how many times you guys write that russell is a blue chip,it doesn't make him a blue chip. you already write that you are POSITIVE the russell would be the starter because he earned it??? in preseason???? come on,you have to annoint a starter before training camp and if you don't then you just are playing the art shell game of " we will choose after preseason". the starter gets all the reps with the starting team in practise,he plays with the #1 team in preseason ,how is it you can have 3 qb's fighting for the starter roll in preseason?? that makes no sense,any coach worth his salt selects who the starter is BEFORE preseason.this way ,your starter has some timing down with the #1 offense and gives him a running start into the season. do it your way and have a mess to start the season,no cohesian or timing,this is not the way to start the season. you want a veteran to be involved in the sweepstakes,what if he wins the job??? you then have a high priced #1 pick sitting on the bench while we go through another season of NOT DEVELOPING A QB. this is where it starts,you pick your qb and you develop him,this is how you build an offense,not bringing in retreads and hoping they become better because they are now wearing the silver and black. walter has as much chance to make it as any of the qb's coming out of this draft,he comes cheaper and with alot less risk,can you understand now???? again,you are basing your assesment of walter on 8 games with one of the worst offenses in history... so you saying that walter is just a poor mans collins because of 8 games and by saying that russell would win the job over walter when you have never even seen russell take a pro snap........ and you call me a dummy,gees,unreal,it really opinion of walter is incomplete,there hasn't really even been an evaluation period,throw out last year,that was a joke,from the coaching to the scheme to players quitting on the field. you cannot evaluate a qb in these conditions after 8 games,that is obvious to all except those who contend that they can,which in reality you can't but you want us all to believe you know better....... like i said,think about what your boy russell would have looked like in that offense,there is your answer. he would have flopped as well,no doubt about it..... all i want what is best for the team and that means giving the young guy we have now an opportunity to REALLY prove himself. this eliminates the risk of taking a non blue chip prospect with the #1 and being stuck with an enormous salary if he flops which is close in % to walter flopping. we need more depth all throughout the offense,like i said,if walter flops this year,go for a blue chip ,if there is one ,next year.use this year to get a foundation,is this really too hard to understand or is that you and your crew just don't want to because the newby on the board is telling you how it should go down??? that isn't very grown up,is it???? once again( not my real name) jones.

8:21 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

We need a Raider Take Hall of Fame. Best performance 2007-
Panty Raider's The Stupid “Mediot”s Fan” Rap Take. An instant classic! Considering his entire body of work, he's in on the first ballot!

8:26 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

jack,of course his former coaches will talk him up in the press,they want their boy to go as high as possible in the draft. take away the hype,like i said,he wasn't even being mentioned 3 weeks ago as being a blue chipper... just because of some press release from his former team talking him up does not make him a franchise i said,who is going to trade for moss or porter??? moss is way over paid,coming off a year where he QUIT and porters value is down the tube because of how art handled the situation. like i said,we can't cut them because of the deep cap hit,we are stuck with them...not to mention Al sided with the players and not art on these 2....

8:32 PM  
Blogger Raider Take said...

Memdf, you are so right! I just read it again, and I'm nearly in tears. Folks, if you haven't seen it, scroll up to PantyRaider's comment above filed at 3:46 PM and beginning with "Stupid Mediots..." Read it to yourself aloud. It is, indeed, a true classic.

8:59 PM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

Jones - We can go around and around on this all you want. So that we are crystal clear on our points, let me summarize:

I believe Russell is a far superior talent than Walter in every conceivable category such as;
- Size, strength, accuracy, arm strength, mobility, pocket awareness, command, and sheer athleticism to name just a few.

(I'm still waiting to hear from you what skill, ability, or attribue that Walter possesses that is better than Russell)

- You feel that Russell (a) isn't a blue chip prospect (b) and not worth the risk or cap space.

- You also feel that we shouldn't judge Walter based on his 8 game tryout.

As far as gauging what is a "blue-chip" prospect, I would submit the following criteria:

- Is the prospect a physical marvel and elite athlete? (in Russell's case, yes)

- Did the prospect compete at the highest level against the toughest competition in a big time program? (in Russell's case, yes.)

- Also, how can you not consider Russell a blue-chip prospect if it is widely believed that he would have been the front runner for the Heisman Trophy IF he returned for his 2007 season?

- As far as "risking" a big chunk of our cap space on Russell, I'm very comfortable with this risk. When your team had the worst offensive unit in the history of the organization, the worst performing QBs in 06, and the #1 pick, a QB like Russell is well worth the risk. I would much rather take bold action on a QB who could lead us for the next 10 years than settle on the status quo or "wait until next year".

In terms of giving an opinion on Walter, what do you expect? Of course we are going to form our opinions on what we saw of Walter in 2006.

Frankly, I'm getting sick and tired of all the excuses along the lines of "it isn't fair to judge Walter with a bad O-line, system, etc."

There were 32 quarters of action where he had the opportunity to make the best of adverse conditions. Are you saying he isn't responsible for the high number of fumbles, interceptions, inaccurate passes, bad reads, etc?

For example, you might argue that it wasn't Walter's fault for getting sacked so often since we had a bad O-line. Makes sense on the surface but the reality is that the majority of sacks were caused beause (a) Walter held on to the ball too long (b) had no pocket awareness (c) failed to throw the ball away (d) was unable to avoid the pressure (e) stood like a fronzen statue.

Should't we expect our QB to adapt to the circumstance and overcome the challenges faced?

Some teams draft a QB to create competition (Plummer vs. Cutler).

Some teams draft a QB and bring them along slowly (Brees vs. Rivers)

Some teams draft a QB and immediately throw the QB into the fire (David Carr)

Some teams draft a QB with the intentions of starting a vet (Kurt Warner, Kerry Collins) but circumstances (injury or poor performance) leads to the draftee (Leinart, Young) starting sooner than expected.

The point being that each franchise has unique circumstances. The Raiders clearly need to make the QB position a MAJOR priority to improve the offense and team's success. To turn a blind eye and continue to put off this problem is foolish. If Walter (and the team) performed better we wouldn't be having this conversation.

9:38 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

sorry panty,wrong again... i would i ever post that i have never played the game when i have played the game???? so you are telling me from the quote you displayed that means i have never played sports???? holy cow fatman,you are one screwy dude....let me guess,now out comes the "you are my lapdog" and " i own you",right??? give it up and talk like a man . the ghetto thing thing doesn't get you respect from anyone with a brain.... you say we play walter and we will flop,meanwhile you declare that russell is the savior and will get us to the playoffs,guess what,i say what the fuck is that..... if you had a brain you would realize that we are more than just a qb away from going somewhere... so are you saying that if we don't pick a qb #1 that we are not building for the future??? what the fuck is that?????............. i don't see many agreeing with you either buddy,except your white clone = br.... i am not frustrated with people who don't agree with me,it makes me laugh at that the ones who think they know what they are writing about, when they don't really know what they are writing about.... so you take them to task on what they write and all you get is,"you dumb" "can't read it" and some dumbass rap bullshyt that is bordering on certifiable..... hey,it is fun,hope you are enjoying it, i know i am and you will all come around and kiss my ass when what i write becomes the truth.....but knowing your types,you just keep on denying and carrying on like it never happened and spit out the old insult and belittling cards cause that is all you show no knowledge and no REAl rebuttle in any of my posts,you just mock it and try belittle it,thats all you got and i love exposing it,keep it on....jones.

9:39 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Calico Jack said...

Take it for what it is worth but Jason Cole @ Yahoo Sports

posted the following:

"Speaking of Davis and the Raiders, the same two sources indicated that Davis remains committed to keeping malcontent wide receiver Randy Moss and Jerry Porter unless he gets a huge price in trade. Davis remains fearful that either of the players will go elsewhere and play well again."

If this is true, anyone pounding their fists about Walter starting is wasting their time... Moss HATED Walter.

Al would either draft rocket-armed Russell or make a play for Culpepper (GAH!)

I'm not a religious person, but "Please lord, Ima begging you... do not let Al pass on Russell in favor of Culpepper just to keep Moss happy... it's bad enough that you have scorned us with Moss in the first place." Amen.

9:40 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

jack,what i call a blue chip is a PLAYER,that includes making plays,fast at recognizing and fast at reacting and quickness from the decision to throw to the ball being realeased . a great knowledge of the game,a student of the game,never leaves the film room,prepares like a deamon and is not distracted by things like big MONEY. a player who is a great leader,others WANT to follow you,they will play their hearts out for you. i don't want no attitude,you are there to do your job and do the best you can. that takes preperation and repetition. he has to WANT to work with his wr's and build a trust. he needs a great arm and vision,he needs to have some mobility but it is not a must,if he is quick enough mentally,he can avoid most problems in the pocket. this is what i would call a blue chipper,do you know if russell has most of these qualities???? really?????? walter has some of these and with experience he can develop more,we need to surround our qb with players,not dogs,we need to surround our qb with good coaching that can play to his strengths,to me ,this is the smart way to go,if we try for the homerun and miss,we fall back even farther,use the first pick to trade down,get extra picks and be aggresive for o-line in f.a. let walter build some timing with the first team in camp and preseason,get an offense that gets to the line in time for a qb to call an audible. get an offense that is more fast paced,with quicker realeases from the qb,draft rb and get a running game going.... there is so much more ,but i'm getting tired...jones is done.

9:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

i'm not tired.... who cares if moss doesn't like walter,in fact,moss said early in the year that he liked walter,so,how do you get that moss hates him???? and if the new coach is going to let moss dictate,then may as well close shop because that will mean same ole same ole...jones tired.

9:57 PM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

Jones - You made the comment
"gee thanks jack,for letting me be a grown up just like you,now you know my fictious name,wow,that is so much more grown up,give it a rest"

The reason for my request to sign in with a "name" is three fold:

(1) From a practical standpoint it is easier to respond to a specific person (or ficticious name) instead of trying to figure out or weed through different "anonymous" posters. How are we suppose to discern one anonymous comment from another? By writing style? Content?

(2) By hiding behind an anonymous shield there is a lack of accountability.

(3) I believe that the "anonymous" posts leads to a lack of civility and open discourse.

It is your choice whether you want to sign in as "Jones" or "Anonymous". Raider Take is a great site and I for one would value your opinions more if you signed in as "Jones" each and every time.

10:19 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

i'm not tired.... who cares if moss doesn't like walter,in fact,moss said early in the year that he liked walter,so,how do you get that moss hates him???? and if the new coach is going to let moss dictate,then may as well close shop because that will mean same ole same ole...jones tired.

Hey, I was once pulling for Walter just as hard as you are now, but I saw what I saw. He looks pretty average to me... now I am far from a football expert, but have been watching it and Raider football for close to 40 years, and perhaps you are right... Maybe Walter is the real deal, and maybe Moss didn't actually say out loud what a crappy QB Walter is, but that doesn't change the fact that we cannot afford to not have a valid backup plan in the unlikely case you are wrong.

If you are wrong, we are looking at 2 to 5 wins again... and we are back to square one in looking for another QB.

If we are all wrong, and Russell sucks, that means we can still turn to Walter and perhaps things will work perfectly.

If we are all wrong... well, let's just say the chances of that are 50% less with two QB's fighting for the same spot. QB was our poorest single position on the team, and also the most important position on the team... why are you continually insisting we don't need as many GOOD options as it takes to remedy this? Or do you just like arguing or something?

10:25 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ok, much of that last post made little sense... speaking of tired. Sorry folks.

10:42 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"RaiderNate 75,
I think it's your stats that are full of S#*t !!!
Do you really think Chicago has a great offense ??
Do you know there getting ready to bench their Qb ??
Chicago's D gave their offense a short field all season.
Plus, they had great ST's.
Come on, watch the games !!!!!!!"

First, I never said they were great. I said they were decent enough to be tied for the second highest points per game offensively in the league. You think my stats are full of shit, then check them bitch. I'll even give you the site.

Our defense gave us short fields too, and our offense couldn't capitalize, that is the difference. You can have a great defense, but you better have an offense that can put a SCORING DRIVE together, giving your badass defense a rest. The Raiders couldn't do it.
The Bears' offense is not great, but they do more than get the job done. Grossman ranked 12th in the League in passing, despite his 20 INT's, and 23 TD's. Thomas Jones ranked 11th in the League in Rushing, averaging 4.1 Yards per Carry. All of this to say that it wasn't just Chicago's Defense! They had a balance of good rushing, and an average passer that put points on the board, gave them a 13 win season, and home field advantage in the playoffs.
Another team similar right now, are the DunderDolts. They have a strong D, an average QB, and LT at RB. The point is they have balance on both sides of the ball.
We can still fill the holes on our defense to improve, but we better bring balance to the offensive side of the ball. I'm ok with Walter at QB, but I have concerns that he is not going to get the job done in the long haul because he is injury prone, and his arm tires out.
We can give him stiff competition for the starters job with JaMarcus Russell. We can further bring balance to this offense by either taking a RB with our 2nd Round pick, signing one in Free Agency, or trading for one. That is what I'm saying!
If you think the Bears' Defense solely got them to the playoffs, you're an idiot who needs to watch the games. You can squabble all you want to about how they gave the offense a short field, but the bottom line is their offense scored points. The Raiders' Defense did the same for our offense this year, and we couldn't capitalize. That is the difference.

5:51 AM  
Blogger nyraider said...

Personally, I'm more than impressed that Russell is only 19 years old and has accomplished so much, including ranking with the best QBs in the country, most of whom are several years older.

He is a proven winner at the highest college level. Beyond what I've seen and what has been demonstrated here at Raider Take, I don't need to learn or see much more to take a chance on him.

For those who suggest we need to chance our entire existence on Walter and possibly some retread (which probably means renegotiating his contract and keeping Brooks), it's probably that the rest of us feel as though we've been there, done that!

It's time to stick our necks out, and not for some above-average college QB, ala Quinn, but for a "freak" who brings more than a QB's share of tools to the table.

Sure, we have a lot of holes, but let's start with the most obvious. If we are to give Walter a pass simply because of poor pass protection and bad playcalling (which, BTW, he was exposed to shorter drops with Shoop and still couldn't get it done), then shouldn't we give the entire offense a pass? If so, guess what? 2-14 here we come again!

6:26 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Through all of this, we've now learned that Jim Fassell interviewed with Al yesterday for a coaching vacancy. It is unclear as to which vacancy; but it is assumed (much like Sarkisian) that it was for the Head Coaching vacancy.
What I like about Fassell is he, like Ryan, is in control of his game, and has presence with the players. He will coach players to understand the importance of working together as a unit to accomplish the goals. Not only is he offensive minded, but he knows defense (even though it is his weaker area), and usually let's the DC take charge of that side of the ball.
If we don't hire Ryan as Head Coach, I would not mind seeing Fassell on our sidelines. I think both Fassell and Ryan's strengths are similar in that they revolve around team chemistry, coaching the players to understand the importance of their role, they make their visions/expectations clearly known, they earn respect with the players by respecting each player, and the ability to bring balance on the field of play. I still would like Rob Ryan as HC with a decent OC because I know he will give his OC full reign on that side of the ball. Fassell would do the same on the defensive side of the ball, but not offensively. He would form the offense around the run, then the pass; which is not what Al Davis wants. This is what scares me with Ryan being HC, and bringing in a young OC, is that Davis will want to "groom" the OC to run the offense he wants, and we are in the same boat.
What I like about Fassell's style of offense is he uses the abilities of the players to further develop their abilities to run a strong Gillman offense (power running, good passing). Then he further throws the defense off by utilizing some West Coast strategy. He did this with the G-men, and groomed Tiki into the RB he became. I like the idea of Fassell as OC/Assistant Coach here. He has shown that he is willing to help groom coaches, with his position in Baltimore (with the exception of Billick). He groomed the under-studies of the offensive coaching staff (the RB coach, WR coach, etc), while assisting Billick as OC, until Billick's ego clashed with Fassell, and fired him despite being 4-2.

6:29 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


You should start a forum, the demand is clearly there.

Not everyone is comfortable with RF.NET and it's owners constant BEGGING for money.

Become the forum the nation deserves, neither tin pot dictatorship, or cash cow for someone willing to exploit Raider fans loyalty for profit.

6:55 AM  
Blogger Raider Take said...

Ghostraider, thanks for the suggestion and sentiment.

To be honest, I'm a bit befuddled by all of this. I don't know the first thing about forums. I started this blog a year and a half ago, and I'm now literally blown away by the fact that so many of you are willing to share your takes on Raider Take. This take broke the comment record, which was set with the previous take.

In the past, I've likened Raider Take to the local tavern where all the vocal and witty neighborhood characters hang out. That's my vision for Raider Take. I view myself as the bartender. I start things off with a wisecrack or a take. Then I serve some beer and listen to what everyone else has to say. Some chairs might get thrown, beer might get spilled, but we're all back the next night swapping stories. Along the way, we learn and grow in our knowledge and passion for the Oakland Raiders.

In that sense, it might already a forum? For now, I think I'll stick to the existing setup, if only because I can barely keep pace with Raider Take in its current format, due to job and family demands. But who knows what the future might hold.

Meantime, please keep the takes coming. Imagine someone walking into this tavern for the fist time, discovering this mosh pit of ideas and insights about the Raiders! It's very cool, and I thank all of you for making it happen.

8:22 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

jack..... throw in any qb,any , to the offense we had last year...what do you see???? you see anyone able to succeed in those circumstances???? let alone a qb making his first nfl starts??? come on,it was a FARCE and to put blame on a kid that is trying to learn the pro game while being harrassed on almost every play and having to drop 5 to 7 steps and WAIT for wr to get open,what is it that you really expected him to do??? the kid gets frustrated,loses his composure and confidence,starts to try and MAKE things happen and when a qb does that,he makes i said,what would of your boy russell have done if he was thrown into that mess???? answer me that and convince me he would have done any better and then i might start to agree with you.....

8:35 AM  
Blogger Raider Take said...

I agree, East Coast Raider. It's time for something new and bold. Fassel reminds me of Norv Turner: A bland offensive coordinator who hasn't excelled in previous head coaching gigs. Fassel has the added distinction of his most recent team, the Ravens, getting better on offense after he was dismissed as their OC.

A want to see some fireworks, in the vein of Martz, or something new and exciting, in the vein of Ryan or Sarkisian. We've tried thinking inside the box, now it's time to think outside the box. I've had my fill of bland with Callahan, Turner and Shell, and I imagine the players have, too.

8:49 AM  
Blogger nyraider said...

Right on East Coast and RT, Fassel is definitely not a guy to get excited about.

I like the idea of Al hiring an O-minded HC and a solid OC to resuscitate our offense, but I'm really torn by Ryan's passion and inspired by the outright over-achieving of his D players’ in a lost season. If the right OC can be found, Ryan is probably the best choice for HC. Allow me to qualify that statement by acknowledging Al Davis won’t spend the $ it takes to get a proven coach.

9:36 AM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...

I'm with Calico. Whether or not Walter has had a sufficient opportunity to show his talents is not the issue. The fact is that neither Walter nor Brooks has shown the ability to be a franchise QB, and we need a franchise QB. JR obiously has the potential to be a franchise QB, and if Walter's the real deal there should be no problem with him competing for the job.

Cap space is not the issue. There is a huge increase this year, and we have a good number of players who should have their contracts restructured based on their lack of productivity. By dumping Brooks alone, we save 5 million dollars.

Some have claimed that JR seems like he might be a little too greedy. There are two kinds of greed for a player in the top 5 of the NFL draft. One comes from a fairly well to do family, and seeks to mark his own worth by how much money he's going to be paid. The other comes from a poor kid who seeks to pull up his family along with him. JR is of this second type, so I'll forgive the dollar signs in his eyes so long as he understands that his work isn't finished when he signs a contract, it's just begun.

As for Davis' reported desire to hold on to both Porter and Moss. This is not unusual for Al Davis. If you just look at Davis' teams from the 60s and 70s you know that Davis never factors in personality. Davis expects that if a player has talent, it is his job to use that talent for the success of the team. It is the coaches job to figure out how to best use that talent. Davis felt Shell failed in this regard, and so he was gone.

If someone can come in here and get Moss and Porter to exercise maximum effort, we don't need to worry about bringing in any more WRs. But still, I don't completely agree with Davis. In spite of the varying personalities on past Raider teams, at the end of the day they were a team. Since the rise of Dion Sanders, players now are far more mercenary, and think only of their own bottom line. Selfishness on a team is a destructive influence, and should be discouraged. All Davis is doing is bringing another problem to his coach. But if the coach can deal with it, I can deal with it.

The assumption that Davis will bring back Porter and Moss because he's afraid they might do well for some other team is just stupid. Trade them to Detroit, where I guarantee you'll never have to worry about them except for one game every four years.

9:44 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

good God br......brooks has not shown to be a franchise qb,yes i agree,he has had 6YEARS to prove it. walter you say is not because of what he did in one of the worst offenses in history and only after 8GAMES...but in the next sentence you say russell IS A FRANCHISE QB AND HE HASN'T EVEN TAKE ONE SNAP IN AN NFL PRACTISE..... where does this logic come from???? if you where doing a scientific study and this is what you based your conclusions on,you would be laughed out of the lab.... sorry,i'm not sold and others are not sold that russell is THE DEAL. i'm not saying walter is,if you weigh the options which include size of contracts and the how much if at all that russell is better.... you also look at the strength of these qb's,they are not what you would call a blue chip group or a sure thing,none of them. we also are weak in many areas,not just a qb...and if any of you think that russell would come in and take over the starters roll and start rolling on the league..... the odds are slim... we will still be rebuilding next year,get used to coaches and a new offense,with either walter or a fa retread will go just as far as picking one of these qb's #1 overall and HOPING they can do something which they won't because they are going to take a while to come around to the speed of the nfl. you would see the adjustment time needed and they would struggle..... and after 6 games you would ALL BE CALLING HIM A BUST. it takes qb's at least a year or 2 to get to being able to read and exploit a defense and the speed of the game compared to college..... RUSSELL WILL NOT COME IN AND JUST TAKE OVER if he is drafted,you all need to get that thought out of your talk about vince young.... he CAN RUN and he is getting by on that more than his passing....russell is NOT A RUNNER,he will have to depend on his ability to pick apart defenses..can any of you tell me that he would be ready to do that from day 1...really,tell me,would love to hear it...... jones is alive and well.

10:33 AM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...


Do you know what the word "potential" means????

10:46 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

He obviously doesn't understand what potential is, BR.
Again, I don't think any of us are bashing Walter. I like the guy, he's got a strong arm. He had a crappy system to work with this past season, as well as, a crappy o-line and their lack of protection.
My issue with him was injury prone, and having signs of a "tired arm" as the season progressed and the more passes he threw.
With that in mind, I have to question his "QB of the Future" status. I'm all for giving him a chance to prove it, but I do not want to "hand" it to him without some competition to see where he stands. Hence why all of us are saying draft JaMarcus Russell, and get another "vet" QB like Leftwich, Ramsey, etc. It's nothing against Walter.

11:15 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

For those posting that we should not take JR because a franchise QB won't turn us around in one year...I say...WHAT?

You draft a franchise QB so that you can compete for super bowls for a decade or more. May not happen for a couple years but if that position is solidified a team can be near the top for awhile.

EC Raider:
Best guess is Porter would bring a three and Moss a four or five, assuming any cap hits are manageable

11:26 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said... miss the point by a mile... yes you do take a franchise qb... the point is,is russell the qb ?????????? not whether we take a franchise qb....jones.

11:32 AM  
Blogger nyraider said...


Most of us lobbied for Shell to play Walter the entire season after Brooks was injured. The obvious reason: to see if Walter has what it takes and could adjust to the circumstances surrounding our abysmal offense.

Well, obviously Shell went back to Brooks, and now we may never truly know all of Walter’s Skills. Sound familiar? It should. TUI didn’t even get that much of a chance! Is it fair? No. Should Walter be given further opportunity? Almost certainly, but not at the expense of POTENTIALLY upgrading his competition for the QB position.

11:32 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

br..... well walter has potential to be the qb russell could do you say walter doesn't have it and russell has,this is the point.....russell has potential,yes,does he have good odds on becoming the franchise??? not in my book,does walter,maybe not,but he can be an efficient qb that could get us to the playoffs with a good d,a good running game and with coaches who KNOW how to bring along a young qb.... the point is,you claim russell to be a once in a lifetime pick,i disagree. i say we use our pick to build more depth and build a foundation on offense,probably by trading the pick for an established player and a pick in round 2 or 3.... start walter and BRING IN A VETERAN QB THAT CAN BE A GOOD BACKUP AND MENTOR,teach the kid the ropes. like i said,we are still going to be rebuilding next year maybe 2... why draft russell and put him in behind a line that is porous and a running game that is poor??? it makes no sense....jones.

11:41 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

ny... i don't care what they did with tui or what shell did with is a new day with a new coach.....hopefully a new offense and a coach who knows how to get the most out of his players,not by ramming an outdated system on players that obviously didn't have what it takes to execute that offense..... it will make a big difference... you say to draft a qb #1 to POTENTIALLY upgrade the position...see,there is the point,do not use the #1 pick to try for potential,no,it has to be a lock,russell is not a lock,period. jones.

11:49 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

wasn't necessarily responding to your post but yes, Russell is the franchise. The line we had this year won't be the line we have next year and [hopefully] there will be a big upgrade in the coaching area

12:01 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

lk... i would like to take your word for it,but what is it that makes you think he is the FRANCHISE??? he played games this year against big teams,auburn and florida and he didn't look even good... he played against a very overrated team against notre dame and they really didn't even put up a fight. what is it,because he is big and can throw??? it takes way more than that to be a franchise...what makes you and others think that he has the intangibles to become the franchise...just saying you think he does because others on here are saying it has no credibility.

12:31 PM  
Blogger nyraider said...


What exactly is a "lock?" Was SeaBass a lock with our #1 pick? Was Gallery a lock with the second overall pick? Who in the upcoming draft is a lock? If you have a name, please let us all know.

And, btw, do you not realize Al Davis still owns the Raiders? What makes you think any coach coming to this team is going to have the autonomy to implement a totally new system. The first thing a new HC can expect is to have his assistant coaches dictated to him.

Not that I agree with the philosophy, because I don't; but expect the same or similar overall schemes, just better coaching.... hopefully!

12:35 PM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...


I can't answer for the words you put in my mouth. If you've read, at all, what I've been saying in the 9 months I've posted on this site it is that you can't necessarily judge a QB by what he's done in college. I said that about Leinart and others. That applies to both Walter and Russell, no? Walter, in this case, has the added factor of having been given 8 games in the pros.

No matter the system, the o-line, or the coaches, Walter had that chance. While he had no opportunity to show what he could do in the "right" system, he did have the opportunity to show what he'll do when the team is breaking down around him, and it wasn't good.

Walter knew the state of the o-line when he started each game he started. Did he do anything to buy himself more time, or to help the linemen in protecting him? No. He did just the opposite. He held onto the ball too long, he ignored the pass rush unless it was right in his face, and he failed to protect the football. He did show that if he got perfect blocking, and he had an open receiver, that he could hit that receiver. Great!

So if we stick with Walter, and only bring in people to back him up, we'll know that he can make the throws so long as the running game is working and the o-line protects.

However, I've seen Russell make remarkably accurate passes on the move. I've seen Russell use offensive linemen just by making sure that the lineman stood between him and the defender. I've seen Russell throw a perfect strike 40 yards down the field from his back foot. I've seen Russell react with perfect awareness as to what is happening on the field around him. These skills alone make a case for Russell.

I'm not even saying, and I haven't said, that Russell will automatically start his first year if Davis pulls the trigger. I have said that it is a competition (one between Russell and Walter) that I think Russell will win. That's called an opinion. It's an opinion that assumes that Davis will call on Russell with the first pick.

I haven't called anybody a moron or a whiner who doesn't agree with this opinion. This is called, "agreeing to disagree." It's something we do a lot of around here.

If Davis follows your advice, does the things that you suggest, and they all work out - great! We'll all give credit where credit is due. But earn that credit first before you expect us all to bow to your superior intellect. Sometimes, though, by disagreeing, we've caught onto some things that we might not have perceived without hearing an alternative point of view.

There are very few things which we discuss around here that are black or white, right or wrong. We bounce theory off of each other. I'm talking about theories of what makes a good QB, an offense, a defense, what makes Al tick, and how much authority is demanded by each member of the organization. All of this is mercurial, and changes from year to year.

My opinion is this: Walter has had a chance to show his flaws, and what he'll do while the team is breaking down around him. What I've seen so far, I don't think is very impressive. What I've seen so far from Russell is very impressive. We have the cap space and the draft picks to select Russell, and still rebuild the weaker portions of the offense. This is not a typical position for the Raiders, and I think that we ought to take advantage of it.

If Walter nails down the starting job in camp and preseason - great! More power to him. I'll enjoy watching him play. If Walter turns out to be the franchise QB - great! I'm sure that at some future date we can trade Russell and get back at least a portion of what we spent on him. But my belief right now is that Russell will win the starting job because he's shown the skills that Walter did have the chance to show and, in my view, failed.

Following your opinion, or my opinion, Walter gets his chance. We have the cap space to take an excellent gamble on getting a franchise QB with the first pick. When you're in this position, you take that gamble.

12:36 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

RaiderNate 75,

You want to call me names tough guy. Alright, what does it matter ?

I could call you every name in the book, and you're still going to be an empty headed, moron, who knows nothing about football.

You were probably one of the fools that wanted to pass on Leinart/Cutler last yr., and take Huff, or Hawk.
Now, after a 2-14 season, you jump from your coma, and say the Raiders need a Qb.
Thanks for being right on top of things genius.

Now you like the idea of Jim Fassel joining the Raiders as OC.

Just another brilliant thought from your feeble mind.

I just hate bloggers like you.

You pump up Chicago's offense with stats, than, when I knock you into reality, you say you didn't really mean it that way.
Then, you start the name calling, because, no surprise, you were fresh out of original idea's to argue.

What a coward you are. Can't even stand behind your loser point of view.

I guess next yr., you'll be saying the Raiders need a DT after teams run wild through the middle of our D.

Fools like you will always be behind the times.

God help the Raider Nation with happy losers like this in our midst.

1:04 PM  
Blogger TheFreakingPope said...

Well said, BR.

I've been swamped this week, and subsequently haven't been able to post. When I have had a spare moment, I’ve gone over everything I can find on Russell. The more I read, the more I hope. Is it a gamble? Of course it is. Will we survive the mistake? Sure. We took Gallery, didn’t we?

I really like your point about Walter. If he can earn the job this off-season, that’s great. I like the kid. If he loses the job to Russell, I’m sure Tui can explain how to cope.

When it is all said and done, this proves to be an exciting few months!

1:15 PM  
Blogger TheFreakingPope said...

Calico wrote:

It is your choice whether you want to sign in as "Jones" or "Anonymous". Raider Take is a great site and I for one would value your opinions more if you signed in as "Jones" each and every time.

Some other tips I’d add:

1. Proper sentence structure.
2. Correct capitalization
3. Appropriate punctuation.

No offense, but with the exception of our dear PantyRaider, whose posts are almost an art form, arguments are more clearly communicated when we follow the basics.

Keep up the great work boys.

Go Raiders!

1:24 PM  
Blogger nyraider said...

TFPope, you can expect a veritable cornucopia of literary genius here at Raider Take.

RT, am I the 200th poster for this issue and, if so, what do I win? (Or, “????” if I want to over-punctuate). Dude, this site has exploded! Tracking this off-season so far is proving to be more fun than watching the Raiders play.

1:45 PM  
Blogger StickUm25 said...

Are we still debating Russell? Jeez, time for a new topic . . .

Hate to play “what if”, but if the LSU/ND game had been close, or if Brady had played as well as JaMarcus, would the debate be between Quinn and Russell, as opposed to Walter and Russell? Would we be saying Quinn finally lived up to the hype, and with his background in Weiss’ offense he should be the pick? Or what if the score had been reversed, Quinn had the outstanding game, and Russell was the one off target. Would those clamoring for Russell still hold that opinion, or would you be just as high on Quinn? I’m not saying I want Quinn, or that I don’t want Russell – I’m just asking for an honest assessment of how much the Sugar Bowl has contributed to everyone’s view on the subject.

2:14 PM  
Blogger nyraider said...


I've only seen Russell in the Sugar Bowl, but have had the opportunity to learn a lot more from well-informed posters and through their supplied web links.

No need to play what if. Quinn might be a great prospect, but he just hasn't gotten the job done, yet. I think we all want a winner, and see Russell as someone who can get the job done.

2:33 PM  
Blogger Raider Take said...

NY Raider, it looks like a race between you and Panty Raider, with others on your heels. I'm in a rush here for 199, so as not to take the 200th slot. I wish I had a prize, like Amy Trask jumping out of a birthday cake or something.

2:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Over at RF.NET the begging offensive continues unabated, their now asking for $60 off fans.


3:18 PM  
Blogger Raider Take said...

200! Incredible. Thanks everyone. These recent discussions have been a great antidote to the coma-inducing play of the team in December. New year, new coach, new opportunties, new energy. I feel much better.

PantyRaider, you've made Raider Take history (in more ways than one, I can assure you).

3:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

holy shit br... your comparisons are a joke... if you want to compare what russell and walter did last year,thats just absurd...... if you want to compare apples to apples,then compare walter in college compared to what russell has done in college.... you guys and your assesments are WAY OFF. you cannot look at what walter went through on one of the worst offenses of ALL TIME and compare him to a college guy that was playing against college players with a solid team around him. how you can even try and compare the 2 is ridiculous and just shows what mentality you have in everything to do with this give art and Al all the rope in the world,but you stuff a guy's career after playing 8 freakin games,in a pathetic system with an o-line that can't block...if you don't know,walter had never played in that system and it was never executed by ANYONE ...... but,walter shows he can't make miracles happen so good bye to him...unfreakin real. ..... stickem,great point,you know everyone would be on the quinn train as him being our savior if he had a great game and russell would have blown chunks..... you don't slobber over a guy that had been fairly good up to his last bowl game and plays a good game against a mediocre irish defense...but again,this is the mentality of the posters on here and if you don't fall in line with everyone else,you are just a black sheep...jones.

3:50 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

to the pope and anyone else......if you don't like how i spell or how it is written,don't read it if it bothers you so much...this is the way i write,don't like it ,oh well.... to those that write that walter will have to earn his starting time...can anyone tell me exactly how that is supposed to go down???? how do you earn a starting qb position during training camp????? other positions yes,but a qb???? no,the way it is done is you name your starter at the beginning of camp and it will be his job to LOSE..this is the way ,you win KEEP the job by progressing and or producing...... there is no time in camp to throw 1 qb in with the starters and then throw another 1 in there to see how he,you name the starter and he practises and plays with the starting offense.... otherwise,once again, there will be no timing and you would need 3 or 4 games for the newly named starter to get into a rhythm with the starting offense and you don't waste games in ANY season..... all you writing that walter should not be named the starter but are willing to throw a rookie that hasn't even taken a snap in the nfl and say that he is already better than walter...the reasoning is laughable....jones.

4:05 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

ny... if you know my posts i have already stated that this team will not change until Al fades away,so don't give me that speech....i have been writing that nothing really does matter with this team until Al figures out that his way does not work in todays talk that with this scheme we need better coaching...a better coach would know that the scheme Al like's will not work,again,if it doesn't change and we try and run this offense again next year..same results.... as far as a lock,there isn't one in this draft p manning was a lock,smart,works like a demon,knows the game,great arm and instincts,not very mobile but can avoid the rush by recognizing quickly and adjusting in the pocket. they don't come along every draft,you all want to put russell on that pedistal,i don't....jones.

4:17 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said... want to meet me eye to eye??? now you are trying to intimidate me???? behind YOUR KEYBOARD??????? yeah,you are a real warrior..stop trying to show me how big and bad you are with threats of going eye to eye and blah blah blah..leave that in the school yard,i'm too old for that shit......jones.

4:19 PM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...


The answer to your question is that the Sugar Bowl had everything to do with it. Since these are college games, one has to pick the games where there is the most at stake, and the opponents play the hardest.

I've said several times that Russell showed up for the Sugar Bowl and Quinn did not. That game represents more than just a college bowl game. For those hoping to enter the NFL draft, it puts pressure on them to shine to increase their value. This is the closest thing to a pro game that you're going to get in college. And it's generally a one shot deal. All the chips are on the table.

Because of the pressure, those who are liable to fold under pressure do so. The real talent keeps their head in the game.

If Quinn had looked like he was the only thing keeping ND alive, I'd rate Quinn higher than I do. But it wasn't just ND that folded, Quinn did as well.

None of that is definitive, but it's surely an indication.

4:23 PM  
Blogger BlandaRocked said...


"i'm too old for that shit......jones."

I thought you were about twelve.

4:32 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

once again br... you show your weakness,cannot write a reasonable post so you try and put me down...what a shame...russell in no way is the GUY,face it,you are wrong again.... so it all comes down to the sugar bowl against a mediocre team that you rate russell as the franchise...and you say i'm 12,unreal...... get over your own bullshit and start making sense.

5:39 PM  
Blogger Raider Raza said...

Wow what a great discussion!!!
My two cents on the QB situation

Brooks will and should be let go and I think it is difficult to grade Walter since our offensive schemes and OL play was so bad.

I think we should bring in a vet (or two) and have some competition during camp.

I find it peculiar that many people are rooting for us to pick up Russell with our first overall pick. I think the infatuation stems from just one Bowl game, since he was under the radar prior to that game.

I don’t like Quinn either, given the chance to draft V.Young, J.Cutler, M.Leinart, Russell, or Quinn, Russell and Quinn would be last. I don’t think this years crop of QB is as good or deep as last year. I would rather pick up a veteran QB e.g. Matt Schuab via trade or free agency..

My thoughts on the Draft
I would rather see us trade and get more picks from somebody else and upgrade more positions such as RB, OL, FB, DT, WR, TE, than risk it all and overpay by drafting at the number one position.

5:39 PM  
Blogger Raider Take said...

The bottom line of Raider Take is to have fun. I love fierce and passionate debate, but let's all please remember to have fun with it. I don't want to point fingers at anyone, can we just all drop the personal stuff and move on to the topics at hand? I don't mind a scrap or two, but we're veering into brawls.

Look at it this way: I assume that everyone is here because, when you first visited this site, you discovered insightful discussions and debates on the Raiders, and you wanted to join the fun. Now imagine someone coming here for the first time today...Would they feel the same way, or would they think this place is more angry than fun? Let's keep that in mind.

I will invoke the delete button if necessary to protect the intended spirit of Raider Take. Help me out guys! We're all Raiders fans! Argue away, but let's rise above the personal attacks and feuds. That may involve turning the other cheek at times, but if it was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for us. Thanks.

7:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

oh panty,so full of threats and names...whatever tough guy. JONES

8:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

sorry panty and mr conspiracy,again,how can one person be so paranoid and wrong??? you want to make me out to be that guy who calls us faiduhs,show the proof, just show the proof, until then you are a fraud,keep the slander to yourself...i am not that guy,case closed...rt,where does this guy get off???? you must know who is who as far as ip addresses go,tell me i'm the faiduh guy and i will leave,there is no truth to it and it is a poor attempt by panty to try and discredit me....... VERY LOW panty,you have NO CLASS.....jones

8:20 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

mr conspiracy, me the proof,show me i'm the faiduh guy,you can't and your slander shows what type of individual you will go to all lengths to try and discredit someone you can't hang with...SHOW ME AND ALL ON HERE THE no way am i the faiduh guy...rt ,you need to reign this guy in,he is out of control....... panty,just show me the proof and stop with the threats and whatever it is that you think makes you look like the big bad cheese.... stick to football and see if you can hang...i'll bet my house you can't.....jones.

8:24 PM  
Blogger AZRaider63 said...

Anano - Jones,

Somewhere above you responded to BlandaRocked:

...... if you want to compare apples to apples,then compare walter in college compared to what russell has done in college.... you guys and your assesments are WAY OFF.

I currently live in Arizona and have watched Walter play throughout his ASU career. I also follow LSU, due to my wife and her family being LSU alumni. I have watched many LSU games over the past 10 years, specifically games with Jamarcus Russell at QB.

I can honestly say that I see more in Russell than I do in Walter. I really do like Walter and think he has the potential to be a good QB, but for my money, I would draft Russell for QB insurance.

Regardless of their college stats comparison, I personally think that Russell is the one with more potential.

I believe we will still draft a good RB with our second pick (second round or first if we trade up) to help our offensive needs.

9:20 PM  
Blogger Raider Take said...

AZraider, now that's what I'm talking about! Pure football analysis.

PantyRaider, I appreciate your thoughts, and I have to say, your "cheek" comment was pretty funny.

9:36 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

az...glad you feel that way,it isn't the whole argument though,picking a guy first overall and giving him loads of money for INSURANCE is not the right thing to he may have more potential,maybe not...look at what we will have to give up for MAYBE more POTENTIAL and basically sell walter down the doesn't make sense,can you tell me that russell is so head and shoulders above walter that he deserves a ton more money and the right to step in and be the starter??? this is the argument,who cares if he can throw 3 td's more a year or has a higher qb rating of 5 points,it does not justify taking him first overall...what is so hard to understand about this,russell may be a good qb in the nfl,walter may be a good qb in the nfl...for anyone to say that it is a lock that russell is better,no this worth throwing a ton of money at him??? annointing him the franchise qb when the guy wasn't even on the map for most of the college season??? to throw a #1 pick overall for him???really????? ........jones.

9:37 PM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

RT: I was busy on the corporate hamster wheel. When I come back, there are 218 comments. Wow! When is Amy Trask jumping out of the cake buck naked? at 300?

Jones: We have differing opinions on a few key points:

(1) You think that the best way for the Raiders to rebuild the franchise is to trade down in the draft, stockpile picks, and concentrate on other areas (besides QB)while I think we should use the #1 pick to select JaMarcus Russell.

Your point of view is shared by many other fans.

My belief is that this is a golden opportunity to take a calculated risk on the most important position to affect positive change.

(2) You don't believe Russell is a "blue-chip prospect while I do.

The last time I checked, mobile 6'6", 260 lbs QBs with accurate, rocket launching arms from big time programs don't exactly grow on trees.

Whether you want to wrap you mind around it or not, JRuss' skill set and physical attributes are unquestionably at an elite level.

You say "like i said,what would of your boy russell have done if he was thrown into that mess???? answer me that and convince me he would have done any better and then i might start to agree with you....."

If given the same 8 games to start like Walter, my answer is that Russell would have thrown more than 3 TDs, completed a higher percentage of passes than 53%, had a higher yards per attempt (6.08), been intercepted less than 13 times, completed more than 1 pass of 40+ yards, had a higher QB rating than 55.8, fumbled less than 13 times, been sacked less than 46 times, and would not have a QB rating that went progrssively down from the 1st Quarter (76.5) to the 2nd Quarter (65.8), to the 3rd Quarter (50.2) to the final Quarter (36.2).

How & Why? The short answer is that Russell is a far superior athlete with far superior skills than Walter. This would allow him to avoid sacks and cough up the football. His mobility & accuracy would allow him to make more plays and complete more passes. His touch on the long balls would allow him to complete more 40+ yard passes.

Don't get me wrong. Walter has a strong arm but what you are conveniently forgetting is that it is difficult to make this pass when you are on your back. Walter's lack of pocket awareness, or ability to sense the pass rush coupled with being too slow to get out of the way was a MAJOR liability to our offensive success.

The key point about why I'm convinced that Russell would out-perform Walter (hands-down) under the same conditions is that Russell's skill set would give him a MUCH better opportunity to make positive plays IN SPITE of bad pass protection, faulty coaching etc.

Under the right circumstances, I think Walter could be a good QB. Unfortunately, as we all know, those ideal circumstances are not the current Raider reality.

9:49 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Last year at this time, most fans of the Nation were saying, don't take Leinart, or Cutler, we have our Qb of the future in Walter.
Go back and read the takes, the majority wanted Huff, or Hawk.

Now, suddenly, everyone is drooling over Jamarcus Russell. Suddenly, the ones that told us Walter was the man, to forget the others, are now QB experts.

But the difference now is, we know alot more about our team then before.

We now know that Gallery, Grove, & Walker are busts.

We now know that we have no running game to speak of, and no FB at all.

We now know we have no TE that can catch a clutch pass.

We now know about the huge hole right in the middle of our run defense.

And, yes, I will admit, we don't know for sure about Walter, who went into the fire under the most difficult of circumstances.
Without coaching, without a plan, and without any help from teammates.

Given all this. Looking at all these holes that must be addressed, is the wise thing to do, to take Russell, who, let's face it, before shining in the Sugar Bowl game, no one was talking about.
To give him all that $$$ at age 19, and to say he is the one we will build the offense around.

If they do it, I will support it, but I agree with those who believe there is a better plan to follow.

10:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said... want to rap your head around are dreaming if you think a 19 year old would have excelled in our offense this year...well you can't argue with post walter's stats in qrtrs..... i think you are forgetting already how we made no adjustments as the game went on and how simple our game plan was each and every week... you keep saying how mobile russell is,wait until he goes against nfl speed,there is a big difference. brooks was supposed to mobile,more than russell and how many times was he sacked???? again,you are projecting what russell would have done on the Raiders by what he did in lsu can't,it is a totally different realm. russell would have been confused and being pelted from every angle,he would start trying to make things happen and thats when mistakes happen..the coaches would have kept calling the same deep drops and leaving russell right there to get mowed down just like is just a pup,to put him under extreme conditions,what do you expect. there is no way russell would have been reading where all the pressure points were,nfl teams diguise it well and it takes time to learn it,walter seems to be intelligent and put him in a normal system and let him learn how to read where the rush will be coming from,you don't need to be running out of the pocket to avoid rush... he does need to learn to step up better in the pocket... you can't sit there and tell me russell at 19 would be able to pick up the pro game and master it in one season,that is not realistic. there is more to being a qb than just having an arm and size,many intangibles are needed for a qb to be good. in no way has russell proven that he has these intangibles or the mind to be a good nfl qb. he may have it,but for anyone to say he DOES,isn't realistic....jones.

10:35 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

panty,you named me as being the faiduh poster,show me proof,i'm waiting....make accusations and then pretend they were not made..back it up tough boy..... and you call me a is twisted sister,flamer.

10:38 PM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

Raider 00 - Let me correct you one minor point and shed light on a misconception.

Point 1: Russell is 21 not 19

Misconception: "No one was talking about Russell before the Sugar Bowl."

Anyone who had seen Russell play whether it was a game last year or earlier this year was bound to be struck by his physical attributes and sheer athleticism.

I would also surmise that many of RT's posters are not avid college fans or don't follow SEC football.

One could make the argument that some of the reasons that Russell flew relatively low on the radar screen are that he was a junior, not a front running heisman candidate for 2006, and played for a team that was not a BCS Championship contender. Conversely Quinn received a ton of hype because ND has a national following, he was a 4th year senior, and a front running heisman candidate.

You are right about all of the Raiders' offensive shortcomings. Trading down vs. taking a potential franchise QB at #1 is just a difference in philosophy.

Another concern of the "trade down" crowd is tying up big $$$ on a #1 pick. Once again, I just think it is a differnce in our philosophes.

No doubt, the stakes and risks are extremely high when you invest big $$$ on 1 player. I would rather take this risk on a #1 QB because you will potentially get the most bang for your buck. How is our "investment" return looking on the $9.5M we spent on Moss last year. Drafting #1 or certain positions like QB and LT you have to knowingly swallow hard on the cap figures. How much of a cap difference do you think there would be from picking #1 and sliding down to say #4? Is the difference so great that it would influence your decision on what might be best for the team?

10:50 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


Ha!!! I would trade our entire offense for Vince Young. I would throw in Brayton too !!!

But you tap into something interesting when you say you like Russell over Leinart. I'm not so sure about that.

That's what I question. Are we falling in love with Russell's big arm ?

We as Raider fans should know better then anyone that it takes more then a big arm(Schroeder, George, KFC), to be a good Qb in the NFL.

With Russell, are we falling into the big arm trap again ???

I think Vick can throw a football further then Brees, but who is the better Qb ??

11:02 PM  
Blogger Calico Jack said...

Jones - You are right, I'm projecting what Russell would do under the same circumstances that Walter faced. No one has a crystal ball or the ability to leap into a time machine. It's funny because you were the one that asked me to make this projection.

Of course my opinions/projections are going to be shaped by:

(a) what I saw Walter do this year & Walter's physical abilities

(b) what I saw Russell do this year
& Russell's physical abilities

What else can I base my projections

Also, believe it or not, I'm not a complete imbecile. I'm fully aware of the fact that there are HUGE differences between the college game and pro game. I also understand that Russell's skill set and athleticism are by far more suited for the pro game than Walter's skill set.

As far as the intangibles on Russell, no one knows with any certainty. However, from what I have read from unbias journalists and what I've seen with my own 2 eyes, Russell has good leadership skills, poise, and command of the QB position.

Did I ever once say that Russell would master the pro game in 1 season? There is an obvious learning curve for any rookie QB. How steep that curve would be for Russell is unknown but I'm more than willing to go "all-in" on him. Why? Because drafting Russell (in my opinion) would have the biggest impact to change our team's fortune. I cannot think of another course of action that would even be a close second.

11:26 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


Thanks for the info on Russell's age. The fact that he's 21, does make a difference.

Call me crazy, but I still like Walter. I think the kid showed a lot of guts, & toughness this year.
Sure he made mistakes, but so did Leinart, Romo, & Cutler. They were just in better situations.

But hey, how often does a team get the # one overall pick ?
I guess you almost have to take a QB.

Most of the time, it turns out to be Akili Smith, but sometimes, it's Elway, or Aikman.

Maybe the football Gods will smile on the Raiders for the first time, in a long time.

I sure hope so.

11:32 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Raider 00
"Now, after a 2-14 season, you jump from your coma, and say the Raiders need a Qb."
You obviously haven't listened to a word I've said. I said we draft JRuss, sign a vet RB or draft one with the 2nd pick, go after o-line help in FA (that's free agency, by the way), and start building an offense to balance our great defense.
I was attacking you because I don't understand your point of a strong defense is going to take us all the way next year. If that is the case then why did we only have 2 wins this year with a strong defense? Then you tried to say the Bears have done so this year with a strong defense and no offense. That statement is not true, seeing that the Bears are tied with the 2nd as the highest scoring OFFENSE! You then countered that was due to the "short field" the Bears defense gave their offense. Well the Raiders' defense gave us the same opportunities, and our offense couldn't do anything, to the point of we were dead last in every offensive category.
My point being that we need to build up our offense through the draft and free agency. We can pick up a DT in the draft in later rounds,comparable to Alan Branch, whom you want to waste our first pick on (i.e. Kory Robertson of VT, or Quin Pitcock of Ohio State). Or we could even acquire a better DT in free agency (i.e. bringing Ted Washington back).
But the overall point I was trying to make, and still am, is that we need to balance our offense to win games. Again, if defense soley wins championships, then why did we only win 2 games this year?

7:28 AM  
Blogger nyraider said...

Jones said: “....who cares if he (Russell) can throw 3 td's more a year or has a higher qb rating of 5 points,it does not justify taking him first overall...”

Well, 6 TD’s would double Walter’s output and match the Raiders' total in 2006.

Individually, Walter and Brooks season TD totals represent a good game for a decent NFL QB. Pretty sad, regardless of the circumstances.

If you need to anoint a starting QB at the beginning of training camp, then by all means, give it to Walter. If we draft Russell and he's up to the task, as many of us think he is, he will eventually take over... maybe next year, maybe the year after.

This is a long-term thing. Having painfully watched every game this year and seeing the depth of our despair, I certainly don’t expect to make a one-season quantum leap into the playoffs.

9:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

jack.... what you are passing by as a point, is the offense that we had last year... you tell me that russell would have done much better because he has more whatever than walter....this is the point... how could russell done ANYTHING in the farce of an offense we had last year. if you are going to speculate,this point is a major one in your analysis,don't you think??? sure russell's "skill set" looks good on a good college tell me how his "skill set" would do in the offense we had last year. to tell me russell would have won more games and more td's and less interceptions is very laughable...this is why i say you can't compare it,but this point get washed over EVERYTIME with all the pro russell crowd..... now if you really take that into account ,you could see that your evaluation of walter is mute,you can't evaluate a pup thrown into that,you can't,case closed...jones

9:01 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said... base your comments on russell being a once in a lifetime gig,i don't believe that to be true....he isn't the second coming of unitas,who knows if he can even reach culpepper status,there are question marks and in my opinion,you don't throw a first pick and major money at a question mark...jones

9:06 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

still waiting panty.............................................JONES

9:07 AM  
Blogger nyraider said...

Jones said " base your comments on russell being a once in a lifetime gig,..."

Please don't put words into my mouth. I never expressed or implied Russell is a once-in-a-lifetime. All I said is that I expect he would eventually (i.e., probably sooner rather than later) beat out Walter for the starting QB role.

None of us can do any more than speculate. There is no crystal ball here.

Al could surprise us all and take C.Johnson (WR), but then what do we do with our current WR misfits?

Based on what I've seen and read, my preference right now is to draft Russell #1. If Al goes with Johnson instead, or trades down for more picks, then I'm on board.

I believe all those options improve our team. The beautiful thing is, we have options, and most of them are good ones!

10:16 AM  
Blogger nyraider said...

Regarding drafting Johnson at WR... wouldn't that be ironic? This is the guy probably most likely to come out of college and make an immediate impact in the NFL. If the Raiders draft him, he'll be "The Man," not Moss or Porter... two veteran babies who couldn't get the job done.

10:24 AM  

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