Chiefs Postmortem Thread
Sorry I glitched out over the weekend.
How's everyone coping after we ran just 30 offensive plays and got absolutely worked by the Chiefs to hit rock bottom on the way to another lost season?
What is going on? How do we find ourselves here AGAIN?
All of these years, all of these high draft picks and trades, all of these new GM and coach regimes, and THIS is where we are at. There's one common thread and I wonder what he thinks when he wakes up on Monday mornings.
posted by Raider Take at 5:52 PM
32 Comments:
Sure, let's talk about a "common denominator" and say "all roads lead to Mark Davis" (which I tend to agree) but there's a crazy irony here. The Aces have won three WNBA titles since Mark Davis took ownership. So I'm pretty sure Mark wakes up in the morning patting himself on the back for that while also thinking it's someone else's fault that the Raiders are so bad.
There's another irony. Now that we've hit rock bottom (and we truly have), many believe it's time to blow up the team and start over. But isn't that kind of what Carroll did last off-season? He let 7 of 9 starters on defense go, then went into free agency and the draft and picked his team. He handpicked Geno Smith. They signed Alex Cappa! They drafted Jeanty with the #6 pick. They were gifted Brock Bowers and Maxx Crosby, and for that matter, AJ Cole and Daniel Carlson. Let's not forget, they pushed Christian Wilkins out the door, and they traded away their best CB in Jakorian Bennett. And these are Carroll's coaches (that really goes without saying).
Don't be fooled. THIS is the team Pete Carroll built.
So the question is, do we want Pete to building ANOTHER team?
I know my answer.
Take...Rock bottom ? There is no rock bottom for the Raiders. It's an endless free fall into nothingness.
Maybe there is a savior who can come along and fix it all. Maybe the Raiders "Dan Campbell" is out there somewhere. But who, where, and when, I don't know.
Right now all we have is an aged Pete Carroll. "Vanilla" Chip running the offense, and Geno "crazy arm" Smith throwing to the wrong team. Oh, and Spytek's son making our 1st round picks. We really needed a running back so badly ?
Lets not forget the ringleader, Tom Brady, part time announcer, part time Raiders "advisor". Did he advise the captain of the Titanic too ?
Last but not least, of course, is the leader of the pack, Mark Davis. His special brand of "losers touch", is all over the Raiders franchise. From his half home games where stadium is half filled with opponents fans, to his merry-go-round, circus of coaching/Gm changes.
I want to have hope. I want to believe a savior is coming. But right now, things look pretty bleak.
The Raiders only have a few difference makers---Brock, Maxx, Kolton, Jeanty. A few mid to above average that could start or play a signifact role on other teams--Stokes, Chin, JPJ, Meyers, White, Butler, Booker. Interesting youngsters with some potential include--Jonah, Tyree, Porter, Glaze. That is 15 roster worthy guys I can name off the top of my head not including Carlson and Cole. That my friends is a rebuild. I am not in favor of changing coaches or GMs and it is not fair to indict them after 7 games with that kind of roster.
Don't get me wrong coahces are to blame as well for not having the team ready for KC or Indy and Geno has looked lost. Thankfully he was signed to a "bridge" type contract so cap impications are minimal if he does nto turn it around.
However, continuity is going to be the key going forward, as much as some people rightfully critize Gruden he had the team going in the right direction and implementing a system. Guys it takes 3 years to do that. Its obvious drafting for the o-line is critical, I wonder if either of our two third round o line picks from this year see the field?
NY, we are all pissed off but don't pine for Wilkins. He was a great player but they far from pushed him out the door, he was injured and refused a second surgery. Notice no one has signed him. Bennett is not Willie Brown lol he has not played this year the Raiders won that trade.
Ghost Dan Campbell was 3-13 his first year.
Sandy
Maybe this is Mark's way of getting back at his dad and all the insults. He has fired Reggie, Musgrave, Bissaccia, AP, and soon to be incomPETEnt!
He has neglected Charles Woodson, Howie Long, Marshawn Lynch, Marcus Allen, Tim Brown, and others from investing in Raiders ownership, and has only allowed former Patriots. He wants so bad to be the Patriots that he has given away the Raiders' identity.
It's not rocket science as to how to turn the ship around. We need a coach like Bill Musgrave, who will coach to the strengths of the roster. We need a QB (we have not had one since Carr). We need CB/DBs, and play more power blocking instead of zone. Power blocking sets the tone to be aggressive, and the more aggressive team wins.
The Colts, Jaguars, Bears, Panthers, Seahawks, and Patriots have all turned it around with coaches who are coaching to the strengths of their rosters. If the Jets get a QB, they won't be a bad team either.
There are only a few system teams who are working, and that is because they have the roster to fit their system. But these teams have not won a championship in a long time: 49ers, Doncos to start. Other system teams are struggling: Raiders, Dolphins, Texans, Ravens, Arizona, and Saints.
Pete has only committed 3 years, I don't want him trading away JPJ, Crosby, Meyers, and others to build a system and leave. Give the keys to someone else like Patrick Graham, who has proven to build a defense on the strengths, and I think would be an awesome coach. I mean, for God's sake, Pete is trying to run a 3-4 defense with a 4-3 personnel! Pete and Chip look lost in everything they do. Time to move on....
Sandy, why would we expect Wilkins to sign with another team? He's under contract with the Raiders on a 4-year deal with $82M guaranteed.
Does anyone expect Pete Carroll to assemble a SB caliber team by the last year of his contract in 2027?
If not, does anyone expect that he will extend his contract at age 77? Is that what we're banking on?
If not, does anyone expect that the next regime will just step in and take over where Carroll left off? Because no other previous regime has. Virtually every HC hired has said this is not a rebuild, including Pete Carroll, then decided it was a rebuild.
Buckle up, because a rebuild right now probably means trading Maxx Crosby for draft picks.
Preach, Ghost Ship!
Sandy, the issue with the 'in a rebuild' mantra is that we've either had several failed rebuilds recently or we haven't actually actually committed to a rebuild until now, and neither of those is a good look. It means we can't get anything right, as the results confirm.
NY, I hear you on the WNBA, and Carroll must shoulder some of this, but Mark's results as CEO of an NFL speak for themselves. He's out of his depth.
Groundhog Day around here. Thinking about asking NFL Sunday Ticket for a refund!
I was very wrong about Geno. Some Raider fans got over their skis on that signing, calling him, “our best QB since Gannon,” an obvious dig at #4. Well Carr is not the type to laugh at this kind of stuff but if he were the type he’d have ample reason.
Hand in hand with Geno, I was also so wrong about Chip Kelly. I was really excited about that hire and felt a little justified after week one. But this offense doesn’t have a clue.
And finally a question. Doesn’t Maxx look skinny? Am I imagining that I heard one of the broadcasters say the new regime asked him to lose weight? If so, why? It’s not like he’s playing LB and dropping into coverage.
Put messing with Max’s weight in the same box with Jeanty’s stance, not playing JPJ at center, and other weirdness.
Mark Davis said he stands behind the Carroll/Spytek and company. Meanwhile, Lincoln Kennedy has been trashing the Chip Kelly offense, saying it's too vanilla. Also, media is all over the trade rumors.
Apparently, Crosby is getting lots of interest, and the compensation is estimated to be one 1st round pick. How can that possibly be? You can't replace Crosby with a first round pick, especially, a middle to late round pick that anyone interested in him would have available to them.
Yet, if this is a full-on "rebuild" and 3-5 years out, Crosby is not worth more to the Raiders than draft picks.
That's the incredibly sad truth!
The Raiders have jumped the shark. I'm disgusted by what I'm seeing. Davis, Carroll and Chipwich Kelly have failed the Raiders and their fans in a big way... leaving no other choice than to scrape the site and start over.
Bob Raider
I don't think Carroll is a bad HC at all, just not the guy for a rebuild. Kelly not bad but too expensive the off season? We think we can win with youth and not do some spending on star free agents and loving and wanting them over youth and good players. Carroll is a good very good HC and it's not zone blocking- it's the game plan- they wouldn't go win now and let Brady lead team, and Carroll pick jis QB Smith is good but there should've been time to look at other guys. Issue is again too- why can't staff win, they won other places? Fans keep waiting for wins but the team doesn't get top players and, winningest can't win here.
IDK, the Raiders coaching and playcalling is so bad Mark Davis had to come out after only 7 games and publicly announce that he still has confidence in his coach and GM. The Raiders are at Defcon 3 trying to protect the sanctity of the team and the organization. They reportedly had a meeting today with Maxx Crosby to tell him he would not be traded... which in the past has always meant you're about to be traded. Apparently, Jakobi Meyers doubled down to the media about wanting to be traded. Lincoln Kennedy - now a Raider analyst - has publicly trashed the playcalling by Chip Kelly.
We can blame Mark Davis for global failures over years of losing but make no mistake this year's failures are on Skytek, Carroll and Kelly. They are the architects of this year's team and the insane mess we are watching. If we blame Mark Davis for the last seven games that's only to say he should not have hired Pete Carroll. And that may be true. It certainly carries weight at the moment.
I feel like we've been duped for way too long. Saying they're "good coaches" or it's time for a "full rebuild" rings way too hollow. The Raiders are exactly what they appear. A bad team with bad coaching. We can disagree as to the reasons why, but they are what they appear. Some things are actually that simple.
Here's more Mark Davis irony: Is it possible the only time Davis feels compelled to be patient with his coaches is the time he shouldn't? Just asking.
Remember Pete Carroll had Reggie Bush and other paid athletics at USC (i.e., the scandal that caused him to leave college), and he was loaded in Seattle, with Russell Wilson, Marshawn Lynch, Richard Sherman, Bobby Wagner, Max Unger at center, and many others.
Carroll's showing so far lends no evidence that he can catch lightning in a bottle for the Raiders.
NY, Mark Davis also stood behind Reggie McKenzie (in my opinion had us going in the right direction), until he brought in Gruden (which I still think was a mistake). He also stood behind as Gruden, Telesco, McDaniels/Ziegler all dismantle our best players on the roster at the time, while drafting garbage.
I have ZERO confidence in Mark Davis and who he hires, as he tries desperately to make the Raiders like the Patriots. I have less than ZERO confidence in Tom Brady and Richard Seymour as minority owners.
IMO, Mark Davis's biggest shortfall stems from his lack of due diligence when making critical hires. Regardless of name, he seems to hire coaches and GMs on his personal whims, and without interviewing his best options at the time. That list is long and includes the names you mentioned.
However, Mark's shortfall may also be the fault of Al, who did little to prepare Mark to run the organization. I'd argue just the opposite. Al's absence in this regard set Mark up for failure.
In a way it's hard to blame Mark for bringing Gruden back after his dad stupidly traded him to the Bucs at the peak of his coaching career. At the very moment Al traded Gruden is when the Raiders started their fall into the abyss. Single worst decision in Raiders' history, and that's saying a lot.
Pete is a winner he deserves some patience. His time in LV will be a success if he uses he next three years to help build the roster and culture, and then hands it off. Sandy
Hey NY I hear you on Al not preparing Mark but let’s be honest; Al’s post Flores coach hiring record was no better with the exception of Shell 1 and Gruden.
This carousel started long before Mark took the reins.
Sandy, perhaps, but Carroll will have only two years starting 2026. And what coach really hands it off? Coaches have their own systems and vision for their roster. Carroll is further proof of that. He dismantled a defense that Patrick Graham was developing, and now he needs probably 4/5 new O-line to run ZBS. He's probably days away from trading the Raiders best WR.
Four years wasn't enough for Gruden.
Steve, Al was the architect. He hired coaches to implement his system (so at least he maintained continuity). Mark keeps swinging for the fences to find his architect. There's no continuity in his random hires, and that's why each one of them want to dismantle the team and rebuild it. Gruden, McDaniels, Carroll all went (or going) scorched earth on the Raiders.
The irony is, the coaches who took interim positions after firings immediately improved the rosters they inherited. Rich Bisaccia! Antonio Pierce! Unfortunately, neither of those guys were sustainable, or at least Mark never placed his confidence in that.
Florio isn't buying the Raiders rebuttal of Maxx Crosby trade rumors. He's no fan of the Raiders but I agree. I'm not buying it either. When teams say no, that means yes. They are trying to get the price up. Otherwise, they don't say anything!
https://www.raidersbeat.com/florio-isnt-buying-crosby-trade-rebuttal/
Maxx is not leaving. Premature to say this after 7 games but so far with the exception of Jeanty the rookie class has not contributed. Sandy
Not premature. It's okay to call them like you see them and allow your opinions to evolve. I'm rooting for Pete Carroll with everything I have, but it's hard for me to see past the trainwreck we've all seen.
Leading up to this season, I watched tape of Geno Smith dice up the Vikings defense to take a 4th Qtr lead and thought, wow, we're in veteran hands now. Chip Kelly became the highest paid OC in the NFL and we got the great Pete Carroll to lead the way. What could go wrong, right?
If the Raiders lose the Jags game, hopefully, they will trade Meyers to the Bills or somebody headed to the playoffs. I have selfish reasons, because Meyers is on my fantasy team. Before you scoff at that, I will tell you the only reason I play FFB is because of the Raiders... because they've been so bad and it's the only way I can follow the NFL past week 7-8 when the Raiders have packed it in for the season every year and we start contemplating the draft.
IMO, the Raiders should pull Geno Smith and start playing Cam Miller. They should play every rookie and start evaluating for next year. The more they deny what's happening, the more difficult it will be to get over the hump with the right personnel in place.
We are once again the team other teams want to play... their supplemental bye week. Pete Carroll has hit a low point in his career, and it took coaching the Raiders to get him there.
I'm just going to post this verbatim. It's what I've been saying, and I truly believe Carroll and Kelly are wrong for moving JPJ to guard.
"Powers-Johnson performed admirably as a center in his rookie year, and won the Bill Rimington Trophy for the best player at the position in his final year at the University of Oregon. It is clear where his best fit in the NFL is but, for some bizarre reason, Carroll and company do not seem as invested. Trading a young talent like Powers-Johnson makes zero sense for a rebuilding team like the Raiders, especially at a depressed value.
If the Raiders move on from Powers-Johnson in the next couple of weeks, do not be surprised when it becomes an immediate regret."
Bob Raider
Trade deadline? How about coaching and leadership deadline? IDK about DC being HC seems he's being left out of the blame for this Tanking! Brady running team? No I think Carroll and older staff and some say from Spytek. Tanking? Why didn't they get elite players and what's with the game plan,? Carroll is a veteran HC and Smith was a good QB why turn on them? Rd they this bad, clueless or slipping and confused or is there other things? Fans need some news and talk from top people. Arch Manning? Carroll is better and Spytek should know to get more stars and Smith is a better player.
If they could explain it, they could probably correct it. They have no explanation, only that "they practiced so well" leading up to each embarrassing loss.
Media are reporting that Mark Davis is the one who put a no-trade label on Crosby. Also, it's being suggested that Carroll tried to hire Nick Sorensen (49ers DC) as Raiders DC while telling him he would take over the Raiders as HC when Carroll's contract expires. So there's the answer to anyone thinking Carroll would extend his contract (knowing that two more years under the best circumstances probably isn't enough time).
Here's one to chew on: Raiders have 4-18 record in games after a bye week since 2003. Worst in the NFL. Jags are 4-3 and, IMO, get an extra bye week by virtue of playing the Raiders. It will take a miracle for the Raider's coaching staff to make the adjustments they have so far been unable to make. The blueprint for beating the Raiders is out there, and teams can follow it to the letter. There's nothing clever about the Raiders approach. Run it up the middle and watch Geno throw into blanket coverages.
It might sound cynical, but it's what we've all seen so far.
Carroll is getting the band back together. Raiders have signed Tyler Lockett, who's clearly at the end of his career after being released by, of all teams, the Titans with whom he signed a very modest one-year contract.
This further demonstrates the struggles Raiders have with their rookie WRs. Meyers is expected to play next week, so his injury is not the reason the Raiders are pulling Lockett off the scrapheap. Bech and Thorton have yet to help the Raiders. Maybe Geno can reconnect with his former target in Seattle. This move looks a bit desperate and may signal the end for Jakobi Meyers, likely to be traded.
It probably doesn't matter who plays WR. Unless Chip Kelly changes it up, the Raiders offense won't get better. Kelly has one speed. Slow!
Carol Davis and George Atkins both died this past week. RPI
Aiden O'Connell is ready to come back from a fractured wrist injury. For all the talk that the Raiders needed to do better than AOC during the off-season, clearly, they did not. Putting AOC's numbers into perspective, he's 7-10, with 3,830 yards, 20 touchdowns and 11 interceptions... wait for it... behind the Raiders O-line! 17 games started = one season, and those are respectable numbers for his first 17 starts.
Of course, the Raiders O-line was better with JPJ was at center and Meredith at guard. For some insane reason - with no hope of success this year and lots of games to mature into the position - JPJ is playing guard instead of center.
IMO, Sunday's game against the Jags should be the last chance for the Raiders coaching staff to get something right. It's hard to believe nobody, e.g., Chip Kelly, has been held accountable. Kelly is the highest paid OC in the NFL. That must come with some expectation that he can call plays to counter any situation, right? Yet, we're still waiting for that moment.
What is worse, being totally terrible team every year like the Raiders, or being good every year, like Bills, Ravens, Lions, 49ers, etc , but still not able to win it all ?
Gotta be a bad feeling to have a Josh Allen, or Lamar Jax, and still can't beat the KC Swifts !
Ghost Definetly being bad every year is worse. Sandy
Better to be in the conversation, make the playoffs and remain competitive year after year than be counted out by week 6-7 every year. It doesn't matter how many top-10 draft picks the Raiders have had over the years, they can't figure it out. It's been a perfect storm of bad ownership, bad management, bad drafting, bad coaching and marginal personnel.
Because of his coaching chops and long history of success, Pete Carroll will be given a long leash to figure it out. By long leash, I mean up to but not more than two more years. Then another regime will take over and probably dismantle it again.
If you believe Raiders brass should demand whoever takes over to build off what Carroll leaves, then won't the Raiders again be engaging in the kind of meddling that has led us to where we are. Even Carroll can't figure out how to utilize some of the best players. Carroll, like so many others, are system coaches, and his system (zone defense and ZBS offense) was not a fit to the personnel he inherited.
There's no obvious solution here. We're just kicking the can.
If not for Mark Davis stopping the idea in its tracks, Maxx Crosby likely would have been traded this week. Carroll and company have missed so badly on their vision to "rehab" the Raiders, their only recourse is to initiate a full rebuild. And Crosby may be past his prime by the time the Raiders get there. So he's more valuable to them in a trade for draft picks.
For selfish reasons, I agree with Davis. But that doesn't make it right.
The Raiders are a mess. Gruden started to turn things around before he was forced out in Year 5. Maybe Carroll can reach Gruden's inflection point two years sooner, but then he's out and we start over, again. Not sure how many times we can see this play out and expect it will end differently.
The Raiders brass have no sense of their own internal workings. They keep changing the system by hiring coaches from opposite spectrums, followed by complete personnel shift and dismantling of the roster. Their incompetence starts at their core. They are rotted from the inside out. We have watched 22 years of this sh*t. It looks the same, even with Tom Brady now a card-carrying member.
Today the Raiders are coming off a bye week and the team is, for the most part, as healthy as they've been all year. Only Kolton Miller is missing from the starting lineup.
So, now we get to see if the Raiders can bounce back and finally actualize the resources, coaches and personnel they assembled during the off-season. The Jags are probably not a playoff team, and they have a few key injuries today. Now is the perfect time to play them, right?
As I said before, we've seen nothing clever about the Raiders approach. They will have to change that if they expect to win.
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